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Horse Behavior and Training

5 year old ottb Jeckle and Hyde

By:
Changenme
Date:
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I have a 5 year old ottb. I got fresh off the track a year ago. When I got him he was mouthy, not bite me mouthy, just occupy himself type mouthy. When I groomed him he would try to groom me back. I have never had a horse do that before. It put me in a state of confusion. I could not grasp how to stop that.I didn't want to punish a horse for being a horse. I could tell he had been smacked for it before. He watched my shoulder for movement and would react if it moved. He no longer does that. I learned to read him and lucky for me he is predictable. So the moment I saw him start, he got a firm no. It took 6 months for his mouth to stay off of me .I had to stop the mouthy stuff so it would not escalate. He is a ticklish horse and sometimes grooming ends up a challenge. When I frustrate him, he shows me by sticking his tongue out the side of his mouth or lifting his hind leg and holding it in air for a moment. I stop what I am doing and I talk softly to him and stroke his head and I regroup and figure out how to be more clear on what I am asking of him. That has seemed to work out for us except.....1 day a week, I never know which day, he is a different horse. All manners go away. Everything you dont want your horse to do.He will do. Leading him to the round pen is a nightmare, once there he is all business.It is like Jeckle and Hyde. Everything an average horse protests or hesitates, My horse does with ease. Everything an average horse does with ease my horse makes difficult. He now has decided to not go to the round pen. What should take 1 min to walk there is now an hour long argument.He has done this 2 times now.  He is the king of throwing tantrums.The vet says he is 100% healthy. I recently acquired another gelding a quarter Horse, due to owners death. I also have a 5 year old ottb mare.I got her at the same time as my gelding ottb. I noticed the 2 geldings have a "macho man " thing going on. They hate each other . I can not put them together in the pasture. They fight like two stallions. Could the other gelding be the issue with my ottb gelding? My mare gets along with both of them. She is the boss. Is my gelding jealous?  Or is it something else ? Is it me? Why does my horse forget his manners only 1 day a week? I ordered Montys halter last night and just started his lessons here a few days ago. .I love my horse but would prefer either Jeckle or Hyde .Both Jeckle and Hyde are exhausting .
bahila73
Hello! 100 lessons completed 150 lessons completed 200 lessons completed 250 lessons completed 300 lessons completed 350 lessons completed 400 lessons completed 450 lessons completed 500 lessons completed 550 lessons completed 600 lessons completed
Hello changemne.  The one thing that is predictable about horses is their unpredictable behavior.

  The DUALLY HALTER will make all the difference in the world with your handling and leadership skills.  Remembe,r that OTTB can be a handful at times.  If he is behaving 6 days out of 7, your probably doing well.  These things {his manners} probably didn`t start to happen for him to learn on a consistent basis until you came into his life.
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The other problem might be the third horse.  Sometimes three horses disturb the hierarchy of two horses.
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Be as consistent as you can while you work on basic leadership exercises with your guy.  That will be the very most important thing that you can do.  95% of the problems that people have with their horses can be traced back to leadership of the horse by the human.

Also, you might go back and read some of the commentary on the forum.  Everyone of us has had horse behavior problems come up that we have had to work through.  It`s a process and these horses make you question yourself and your abilities at the time. but stay the course and breath deeply, and your love for your horses will come through.

Please keep us posted

Bud
JoHewittVINTA
Please upload your photo 100 lessons completed 150 lessons completed 200 lessons completed 250 lessons completed 300 lessons completed 350 lessons completed 400 lessons completed 450 lessons completed 500 lessons completed 550 lessons completed 600 lessons completed 650 lessons completed
Hi Changemne & welcome to the forum. Bud, others & I gave advice which applies to your situation also in a post recently under the heading I NEED MORE.... I Suggest you read that post repeatedly. There are numerous points raised relative to the OTTB & their specific problems. Horses that groom you are very special. It is a huge compliment & I cannot understand why you would want to reject such acceptance into his life. He's inviting you to join is family or herd. If he gets a bit strong about grooming you simply step away, look him in the eye & step back to continue scratching him - he will soon get the message to be a little more gentle. Cheers, Jo.
bahila73
Hello! 100 lessons completed 150 lessons completed 200 lessons completed 250 lessons completed 300 lessons completed 350 lessons completed 400 lessons completed 450 lessons completed 500 lessons completed 550 lessons completed 600 lessons completed
Hi Jo;  thanks for you input here.  I honestly thought about mentioning the incredible acceptance that a horse offers when they groom the human in a mutual show of the caring attribute that they possess.  I look at this as the threshold to the spiritual when my horses offer this affection to me.

Bud
Changenme
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Thank you. The  reasons I stopped the grooming of me was because he is "mouthy" and I had to put a stop to the unwanted mouthy, I wanted the unwanted mouthy gone  and didnt want to confuse him.I was also told by many that it would escalate the unwanted  mouthy if I let him groom me..I wish I would have joined here when I brought the 2 home.I cherish every sign of affection any of my horses give me. Especially from the mare. She had knee surgery and when I got her about 1 month later  I bumped her knee while grooming her.She has yet to forgive me. When I spend time with her  now all she does is pin her ears back and grind her teeth at me . I am hoping one day she will forgive me. My gelding is a thinker and he makes games out of everything. He is a horse that will test everyone and everything. We have a who can outsmart who type relationship.I love him , he makes me laugh and  is a good boy. He just does not always know that. He loves the attention and will try to please.The best part about him is his patience in me, especially when I am not being clear on what I am asking. I will read the posts you suggested. I thank everyone for your help. My halter is out for delivery today. I am excited.
JoHewittVINTA
Please upload your photo 100 lessons completed 150 lessons completed 200 lessons completed 250 lessons completed 300 lessons completed 350 lessons completed 400 lessons completed 450 lessons completed 500 lessons completed 550 lessons completed 600 lessons completed 650 lessons completed
Hi. You have a REAL opportunity to change this horses life. I have 4 & 3 are very mouthy. I prefer mouthy to using their feet! I have 2 youngsters who hold my hand in their mouths & their dad, sadly traumatised by a bad trainer who since that experience has taken to holding my waistcoat in his mouth. I love each of them & I know they trust & appreciate me - horse/pony love of humans yet to be scientifically proven ( but I am totally convinced that inter species love happens )! My youngsters hold & grip because they want me to stay with them. This happens regularly. I suggest you spend lots of time scratching his shoulders & neck. If his muzzle touches you give him more scratches. This fella so wants to connect & everyone has rejected his advances throughout his life yet this guy keeps trying. He's a champion so study the lessons on the uni, record yourself so you can correct your body errors, work hard & give this horse the co-operation he deserves & clearly craves. Cheers. Jo.
bahila73
Hello! 100 lessons completed 150 lessons completed 200 lessons completed 250 lessons completed 300 lessons completed 350 lessons completed 400 lessons completed 450 lessons completed 500 lessons completed 550 lessons completed 600 lessons completed
Changenme;  In your last post, you describe your gelding tendency [live mindedness] and that it brings a smile to you.  I look upon this type of behavior from a horse as a blessing from above as they are showing you exactly where their mind is at the time.  It is engaged and ready for your input and he is leading YOU, at the moment.  When he sees that he has brought a smile to your face, you have unknowingly opened the door for more of the same.  It is called PLAY and is based on a give and take exchange with the  another horse OR PERSON whatever the case may be.  I view this as a very valuable teachable moment in the relationship of human to horse, while trying to BASE MY TRAINING ON THE EXCHANGE of actions between us.  In my opinion, there is no better moment than now to show the horse what you would like him to learn. ` REASON BEING, IS, THAT HE FEELS SAFE IN HIS DECISIONS OF THE MOMENT WITH YOU AND HIS MIND IS OPEN FOR THE NEXT TRY.
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My suggestion to you would be to treat this moments as golden moments for teaching and learning.  You basically have set each other up for the next moment, and the essence of horse training.  I treasure these moments with my horses.  Please give this some thought and keep smiling, you are receiving his gift of TRUST. 

Bud
Mel - Ramsgate UK
Hello! 100 lessons completed 150 lessons completed 200 lessons completed 250 lessons completed 300 lessons completed 350 lessons completed 400 lessons completed
Hi guys and welcome Changenme, 
Been a mad couple of months with exams at Uni, so my aplogies for not being around as much. 
Changenme, I let all my horses and horse I work with groom me when I groom or itch them, it's part of mutual friendship and bonding. For horses that are mouthy at first, I don't stop them from grooming me, but I say 'ouch' as if hurt and flinch giving them a quick glare at the eyes, but keeping my feet still. Then I'll itch the withers gently and look back at them with a gentle eye and say the word 'gentle'. If horse can learn the words 'walk, trot and canter' then they can learn other words and associate them too. The horse normally then come back and start grooming again, still hard so I repeat the process  until they start to mouth gently. It doesn't talk long for them to realise we're not as hardy as them and the mutual grooming becomes gentle.
Something to bear in mind too, how do you groom him?  If you're doing brisk hard strokes then he will be likely to copy you in return. Be gentle and gentleness will be returned. And teach him the word 'gentle' 
Mel 
xx

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