Hi there,
hope you are all fine. My life has changed quite a lot within the past months, especially since November 2015, where I have started up my own business. I am working as a non-medical practitioner, physiotherapist and chiropractor for horses and dogs now. Also I am offering workshops and starting horses or helping people with difficult horses.
It's working out quite fine, but at the moment I am really in trouble with one of my starters:
He is the gelded son of "For Pleasure", one of the most famous show jumping horses from Germany. Unfortunately, his father is known to be a very difficult horses, and so is his son. Ruby (that's the starter's name) came out to be a talented bucker under the rider. The rider mounts, he stands still, and all of a sudden, he starts rearing up, comes down onto his feet again and then starts bucking like hell. So, I put on a buckstopper, and he stopped bucking. Sometimes he is still thinking about it, you can feel he is getting very tense under the rider, but he doesn't do it. No big deal so far. But the problem is, you can't get him to move. You can give all the correct cues, you can cluck, and there can even be someone on the ground helping you with his bodylanguage, he doesn't move. Eventually he will start moving, but only for as long as he wants to and only in the direction he wants to go. So, there is no possibility of traveling along. Even another horse infront of him or riding on a single long line (which I absolutely to not like) did not help. As soon as he is standing and you give him all the cues to go forward, he will start backing up. I startet backing him up, to see if there is a point where he gets mad about it and starts to want to go forward, but instead he starts rearing up. When he rears up I am afraid of him falling backwards, so that's why I did not try the giddy up rope yet, I fear he would do the same.
So, as we do not have any more ideas at the moment (I am really desperate right now), please, help me! I would love to read all your ideas and will be back out there on monday morning next week to try anything.
Best whishes from Hamburg, Germany,
Jasmin
Hi Jasmin, first of all many congratulations on your new business I wish you every success.
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Ok, I have to confess I am confused - you describe Ruby as a "starter" and yet already on to rearing, bucking, buckstoppers, etc etc. Can you take us back a few paces please.
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How old is he? when was he gelded? What did you do to 'start' him and when i.e. I assume you did Join Up etc etc. but please take us through the timescales of this.
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When you first put his saddle on, did you do a full join up again wiht him? Has he cantered with a saddle on?
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What made you decide to use a buckstopper so soon into his training (assuming it is soon)
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Sorry for all the questions Jasmin but I feel I need the background please :-)
Hello Jasmin and thank you for your request. First of all, I have a number of questions to ask you. How old is this horse? How long since gelded? How long under saddle? How long and how was he trained before you started with him? What kind of tack was used on him in the training process? What is the tack now used on him? How is he around other horses? Is he respectful while being tacked-up? Is he kept in a stall? If so, for how long a time. Does he get outside to just be a horse? What exactly did you mean by the statement that his sire was a difficult horse to train? Was the statement meant to imply that his DNA has something to do with his behavior? What was his dam like? How was she around people? Was she trained to ride? This probably seems like an over the top approach to helping you with your dilemma, but as a breeder- trainer of horses for many years, I find that most of what you have described above falls into some or many of the area`s questions that I pose to you. Behavior like you have described just doesn`t happen unless it slides down a path that has taken some time to frame. ................You are probably coming into all of this after the fact and you are in dire need of answers to some of these questions. WE ALL ARE..........................I would suggest starting on the ground at liberty with this guy..............When entering the round pen, ask yourself the question--Does he want to share space? Does he honor your space? When he makes the decision to walk away from you, what do you do? Will he come back to you over time? Do you see any happiness within him? Will he play with you? I would start with these exercises and go from there. It might take a while, but what your trying to build here is a WANT-TO attitude and we all know what that means---RELATIONSHIP...........This all starts an end with the thoughts that come into and out of this geldings`s mind. Your job would be to empty-out those many cupfulls of worry that this boy carries around with him.......... Anyway, I hope that helps in your quest to turn around some apparently belligerent behavior. Bud USA
Hi Vicci, hi Bud,
thank you for your answers so far.
Ruby is a nearly 5 year old horse, which was gelded age 3. He lives in a small herd with another gelding and an older mare out in a field, not in a box stall. He knows how to behave around other horses, so there are no problems. First of all I have to say, that I was NOT the one who really started him, the owner bought him as a well ridden horse. He was "started" about a year ago. But, in fact, he was not. He seemed to be okay with a rider on his back, but showed the same problems. He bucked her off and she was too afraid to try it again. So this is why she engaged me. I started with him as a "well ridden" horse, but in fact the first time I mounted, he tried to buck me off. He was not successful, but this was when I decided to start everything with him, as if he was a raw horse. So, first of all, I did Join-Up, his bodylanguage is beautifully, we went on to a perfect Follow-Up. Then we started with some Dually work. It took some time for him to understand the backing up, but when he got it, he was great. On the ground he is perfectly fine with everything, even plastic, and we also did full Join-Up. He was fine with double longlining, the saddle is okay for him in every gait. No problems at all, he loves to be around people, trusts them (including me) and is a very curious horse. He has english tack on him, but bit and bridle (I've also been trying to ride him only with saddle and Dually Halter on, but we had the same problems).
Yes, I mean, it has something to do with his DNA. Many of his (half-)siblings are known to have similar problems. Sadly, I can't tell about the mare, but I know, that she was ridden.
A big problem for me is, that as soon as somebody is sitting on his back, he won't give him any attention (if he does not buck). His ears are everywhere, but not with the rider.
Something I should also mention is, that there is no way that his back could be painful. As a chiropractor I did check this and adjusted him, he is perfectly healthy, the saddle fits.
So, I hope I answered all your questions.
Thank you!
Jasmin
I think Bud and I must have responded at the same time Jasmin so you must feel interrogated! Sorry :-) Looks like we have a tricky situation here....I will give it some more thought...in the meantime, if you think of anyhting else that might be useful keep it coming :-0
There is nothing you have to say sorry for, Vicci. I appreciate all help I can get here. And if there are questions coming up twice, don't worry about it. Just ask me everything you want. I would be glad to find a better way in training this horse.
Thank you. I do have one final question, do you have a dummy rider that you can use by any chance?
No, sadly, I don't have one. But I also think it would not help to use a dummy rider, because everything he wears on his back which he is not able to buck off, he does no longer pay any attention to. His ears are listening to the whole world, but not to the one sitting on his back. So I think, you could even whip him (which I would never do, I don't even own a whip), and he would not react to it.
Hi. Probably a strange question, is the horse deaf or does he have a hearing impediment?
I write this because from what I can read from your description the horse is ok when he can see you, but when he cannot see you because you are sitting on him, it's the time he acts up ?
The first thing that's sprang to my brain when I read your problem was that the horse is deaf , or he has a hearing impediment.
I'm new to this university, so I'm not an expert, but I have seen this before on a video - YouTube- with that Australian trainer Clinton Anderson, and the owner had to learn a type of sign language which helped the horse 100 percent.
It's just an idea.
I hope that you soon find the cause , because it's just sad for the horse and of course for you.
Best regards from Dionne in Denmark.
I write this because from what I can read from your description the horse is ok when he can see you, but when he cannot see you because you are sitting on him, it's the time he acts up ?
The first thing that's sprang to my brain when I read your problem was that the horse is deaf , or he has a hearing impediment.
I'm new to this university, so I'm not an expert, but I have seen this before on a video - YouTube- with that Australian trainer Clinton Anderson, and the owner had to learn a type of sign language which helped the horse 100 percent.
It's just an idea.
I hope that you soon find the cause , because it's just sad for the horse and of course for you.
Best regards from Dionne in Denmark.
Oops.
Hmmm, this is an interesting puzzle - there is a major risk here that we all throw all sorts of solutions at you but I don't think this will work. I feel strongly that the key to this is to drill down to what is actually the root cause of this rather than addressing all the symptoms. If there is no root cause and EVERYTHING has been eliminated as a reason then it has become a learned behaviour that has a strong pay-off i.e. "I buck, rider gets off = success". However, I am not convinced about this being a learned behaviour yet until all else has been ruled out. There is a great danger in using a buckstopper if there is a root cause (for example pain) as you end up masking the problem, however, if it is a learned behaviour then the buckstopper has a role to play but....
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I suspect this horse has been missold and this behaviour as been going on for some time and that's why he was sold however that's of no help to us now and you have to "work with what you've got"
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As you say, no rider, all is well, rider on board = problems. It is interesting that his siblings display similar traits.
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Now, at this point, I risk causing you offence and I don't want to but it is better that I say it. I do not in any way want to discredit your abilities/diagnosis as a physio and chiropractor and you have clearly examined him for pain but I wonder if there is a deeper exploration that needs doing in this area. Are his owners willing to spend money on an XRay or MRI scan?
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When I did my training course at Kelly Marks' the instructors told two stories of horses very similar to the one you describe and they just could not find the answer. Saddle on/groundwork everything fine. As soon as rider got on board - major problems. In one case it resulted in the saddle being dismantled and they found a staple poking through that caused no problem when there was no rider, as soon as rider got on, the staple pushed down like a thin needle skewering the horses back. In the second horse, it was kissing spine.
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I do feel that further medical work needs to be done - especially as their is a familial trait - just to be absolutely sure as it would be very unfair to treat it as a behavioural issue when it is a medical one.
Hi Dionne,
no, his ears are perfectly fine. He does even answer to other horses, when they whinny from severaly hundred meters away. It seems to me, as if anything beeing on his back is just there as a weight he has to carry and does not have to pay any attention to.
Vicci, no, you don't discredit my work with what you're saying, that's okay. The main problem is not the bucking, it is him not paying any attention to his rider. You could kick in his belly, he does not react. Another problem is, that as soon as somebody is on his back, even the groundwork does not work any more. The owner tried to lunge him with me sitting on his back. For about 3-4 laps around he was fine with that, his ears where pointing back to me, he seemed so be listening and I could even put a little bit of rein pressure on him. But then suddenly, he stopped, turned his hind legs to the outside of the circle and his owner did not have any chance of sending him forward. When she tries to walk back into the driving position, he starts backing up. And the rider (me) does not have any chance to help the handler on the ground, his ears are no longer pointing towards me. He starts striking (can I say so?) with his tail and backs up.
No, sadly his owner does not have the money for XRays or MRI scans, she is only 21 years old.
Hi Jasmine and thanks for the answers to all of our questions. Vicci makes a whole lot of sense with some of the thoughts that she shares regarding Ruby. One of my original thoughts was for you to try a mannequin rider with long lines for a period of time {making all the moves that you could with him} ie. halt, forward, stand for a period of time, back-up, leg yield, walk, trot, canter,go to different area to try these exercises. These dummys are not very difficult to make ; old jeans stuffed with hay or straw and plastic containers stuffed into the pants and tie-wired together with bright colored shirt covering the plastic containers and arms stuffed with Styrofoam hose insulators {attached to the halter} and many elastic connectors to keep the dummy in the saddle. As you guess, I have a good deal of experience with this as I am 78 yrs of age and still start young Arabian horses every year... I would give this a try Jasmine and see what kind of reaction you receive from him. When you do this, really concentrate your focal energy on HIM and his reactions with what your telling to do. Mentally note if there is any lag time in his thoughts about what your asking of him. ie. he might be spot on with some of what your directing, but maybe not all of the directions.....I would try this with him for a week and when he gets really comfortable, try it at liberty. I would also mix in the mounting block with each exercise, along with having someone mount and dismount many times a day. If this does work for you, start out very slow with a live rider, using lots of reinforcement and congratulatory strokes. I would keep everything at a walk and see where it takes you. I would mix the dummy rides with the live riding until you think that he is solid. This might take a while, so be prepared to stay the course. It sounds to me like he has learned this behavior along the path of his training; Or there could be something physical. After each episode, treat him to something really tasty. Take him for a companion walk where there`is grass to graze on after he is given some grain. I find that this after the exercise one on one with the horse can work magic. Another thought would be to start his routine for the day with being tied and afterward groomed. This might take a few days to fall into place for you, but give it a try. ..........I would visualize you riding this horse over hill and dale while he is giving you everything you ask for. This visualization will prepare you and the horse for the coming of events down the line. Horses like this have a good deal to teach us and in the end these are the horses we remember the most. Please stay safe. Bud
Hi. Ruby is showing the family trait - but it's not bad behaviour; the family trait is high sensitivity. This horse comes from a family of successful show jumpers. Therefore, it's likely that the stallion, whose reputation for 'bad behaviour' comes from a less enlightend time, was trained without giving thought to his comfort zone. By that I mean, taking sufficient time - he was forced, possibly by well meaning people. Show jumpers are 'produced'. Production is a process - you follow the process & don't read the horse as an individual, you read the progress of the production process. The siblings have probably been trained with the stallions reputation in mind - Ruby too. I can only draw on my own experience. Humphrey is no show jumper, he's a cob. Left entire until 6, sired 2 offspring, a Colt & a filly who are now rising 3 & 2 respectively. They live together & react like any family, a lot of time together. I sent Humphrey to be started last summer, at the age of 7. He should have been away for 6 weeks. I brought him home after 1 week, outraged by his treatment by this professional. He'd left me an amiable, friendly pony. He came back completely disconnected from humans, standing inside his stable space showing no interest in his surroundings, which were all new to him as not 'at home, or me! After about 24 hours he started coming out of his shell & gradually became my amiable friend again. I got a helper & we worked very gradually, stopping each session as soon as Humphrey made any positive progress. Every time he achieved anything he was really congratulated & we stopped. With the professional he'd bucked off an experienced, long legged teenager. It took about 12 bucks to get her off. She was very proud to have stayed on that long, she told me. Never once did Humphrey buck with Stan. After 5 weeks Humphrey happily carried his passenger - Stan doesn't ride & it was some task working them both from the ground. But Humphrey has really changed. Yes, he used to be friendly but now he actively seeks my attention, pulling at my sleeve just like the youngsters do. Ok. A little irreverent. In the series Montys Memories he tells a group of 'troubled' teenagers the story of Blushing E T, a very troubled young thoroughbred race horse. Monty worked with this horse for over 2 months with a very successful outcome. My point is, Monty said most horses only need a few days to a week & this one took about 10 times longer. Ruby needs to go back to the very beginning, again. He may even be reacting to remembered pain. Change the tack, take little tiny steps & be overly generous with the praise. As soon as you see him thinking of negativity change the activity to something well within his comfort zone & as soon as he relaxes, stop. Turn him out for a couple of hours & restart well within his comfort zone. Humphrey happily did 2 or 3 short sessions a day, sat on for from 2 to 15 minutes depending on how relaxed he was. We always ended on a happy note. Be innovative in your thinking. Use all the available tools. Make legs (a blanket rolled up & tied), a dummy rider as Bud described. I'm sure Ruby's young owner is eager to have a really willing partner but they need to have patience to achieve that. Good luck. Cheers, Jo.
Good morning Jasmine and all. Jo, your description of the training in the show jumping world is spot on, It`s more about the process than it is about the horse. My thoughts went to this training process and the lineage of successful show jumping horses when Ruby`s DNA was discussed. I have been in the show world and I know this to be true with the larger, more successful farms. This is one of the major-league reasons that Monty has such popularity in the TB industry. He can take uncertainty and find a way to develop a solid individual without destroying the emotional conformation. I think that`s because he isn`t afraid to walk through the door of uncertainty. .Jasmine, I am going to suggest a few things that might help you turning this boy`s apparent VACANCY OF THOUGHT when being ridden to focusing on you as a partner. #1 the connection between you two is everything, nothing else matters. #2 Learning is more important than teaching. #3 Happiness is the crown to be shared in the connection of you two. #4 I am a big believer in working with horses at liberty, because the answers they give you in their body language is authentic with their thoughts. You might design an exercise in mirroring each other`s movement during these liberty sessions. This works wonders for me with the young Arabian stallions to encourage them to focus on me as a team with them. This also is the precursor to join-up. Basically, you would be establishing a NEW thought pattern for this boy. With this going on, you might try housing him in a stall in order for the new thoughts to soak in. I am not an advocate of keeping horses in stalls, but I am not so closed minded that I don`t think they have a purpose sometimes. Some of us have no choice with this. Give this some thought anyway. All of the above mention exercises should be done many times a day for short periods of time. t....................................................................To everyone that has commented to Jasmine about Ruby, I am blown-away by the level of the questions and stories offered to help Jasmine her time of need. This is truly a remarkable group of horse conscious people. MONTY WOULD BE SO PROUD AND PLEASED. Bud USA
Bud - can I come and visit and watch you work and meet your horses?!! :-)
Hi Vicci I would so pleased to have you come to our farm anytime. Jasmine, I just reviewed the complete set of Monty`s lessons on the BUCK STOPPER series. I think that you might review that whole series because he talks about many of the same things that your encountering with Ruby; right down to the fact that this mare is headed toward being a jumping horse competitor. The thing that really stuck out to me the length and detail of the extended notes to each segment of training. Take a look if you haven`t already, some of your answers might be there. Please be safe...Bud
Where is your farm Bud; do you have a website for your breeding/training operation?
Hi Vicci, our farm is located in north eastern Wash. state. Our website is Skyhavenarabians.com We are no longer breeding horses because of our age and some health issues in the family. We still have 13 horses on the farm, 3 of which are stallions, 5 geldings, and 5 mares. My greatest wish is to find good homes for most of these horses with likeminded people that I have found on this forum. My wife and I are extremely proud of how these horses greet people when our farm is visited. We seem to always found ourselves in the middle of the pasture surrounded by many of these individuals wanting to be the first to be rubbed and loved. I am so indebted, personally, to these horses, for they have taken the time to educate me about themselves, while making me a better person because they were in my life. Foaling out the babies was the icing on the cake. It was beyond words to share in that creation. So I give back and learn as much as I can from them. I hope to train these geldings and one of the younger mares well enough, so they will always have a safe home where ever they go. We said goodbye to our last exported filly three weeks ago. That is always so hard on my wife and I. They do get under your skin and climb into that special place by your heart. ........................I train in a 90 dia. round pen and also in what, could be ,an outside arena, somewhat larger than a dressage area. Our house, barn, and outbuildings take up about 2 acres and the other 13 are divided into pasture. The two young stallions are housed with geldings for their socialization. I find that this arrangement takes an emotional edge off of these young studmuffins, while developing their mind and their bodies naturally...........I do have the ability to ride off of our place into the woods located behind. I sometimes take horses back there on the leadline to introduce them to new surroundings. I find that if I can tune into their surroundings [environment] we have a common awareness that opens them to my leadership. That`s a really COOL feeling................. A book that I would like to share with you that really turn my horse world around along with Monty`s university work, is called Zen Mind Zen Horse by Dr. Alan Hamilton. He is a retired brain surgeon and an excellent horseman from the southwest of the USA. Monty Roberts is the first to be mentioned in his bibliography. He brings different ideas regarding thought processes for both humans and horses during training sessions. Maybe you already have the book, but if you don`t I believe that you would enjoy what and how he writes about training of horses. ......I hope this gives you some incite to my world and thank you so much for asking....Regards Bud
Hi Bud,
I know you wrote the above as an answer to Vicci, but I can't help responding to it, too!
What you explain about your way with the Arabian horses that you and your wife have bread and trained, makes me wish I could have been there with you. My experience with Arabians is about 3 years of training youngsters at a breeder's home. I'm in awe of their intelligence and their temperament, which is often misunderstood. They are not the nervous energybundles most people think they are, when trust comes in, they are more gentle than any other breed I know. Work at liberty and giving them always as choice helps them develope a deep trust and cooperation with their handler.
It's no coincidence that you mention Zen-Mind, Zen-Horse by Alan Hamilton, the book has been a great help to me too. Did you see the film "Playing with magic" by Wayne Ewing as well, it's based on the book.
It's always a pleasure to read your comments on this foum, now I understand even better where that comes from!
With deep respect for your life's achievement,
Kind regards,
Miriam
Thank you so much for the kind words and thoughts Miriam. That`s nice of you to mention these things. I only wish that you and so many of the other folks on this forum could be closer so we might visit in person and share each other`s revelations and discoveries. These horses take us to places that we could not know without them. I value the friendships that I am making here along with knowledge and support that is freely given. Thank you once again, Bud
Hi Jasmine and how are you doing? I was thinking about the position that you are in as trainer of remedial horses. That has to be tough for you to go through at times. I have bred and raised all the horse that I have trained and know them intimately. I also know how different some of them are from the others. I realize that getting a strange horse in here with issues is a whole different arrangement. My hat goes off to you for your efforts. Please stay to touch with us to let us know how things are progressing. Again, stay safe and on top. Regards Bud
Oh Bud, I've just looked at your website, your horses are truly beautiful. I always think that sea horses and Arabs are so alike in terms of facial shapes and absolute elegance:-)
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Funnily enough my friend has a stallion called Prince he is from a very very long and old Connemara line and is quite special, just like your Prince!
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I truly hope you find special homes for them. Thank you so much for the offer to come and visit, I hope I am able to manage it before they are all in their new homes
Brilliant Thread! Sorry not been around to contribute. After reading through the comments, my thoughts keep coming back to the original post re Ruby bucking.
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Jasmin, can you do me a favor and run your thumb down each side of his spine starting from the poll. About an inch away from his spine. Then on this image note at letters http://www.manolomendezdressage.com/painted-horse-demo-2016-pain-points-1242016/
B,C,D,J,X,L,M,N,N
if there is any reaction, a reaction could be a slight flicker, flinch, shake, tail movement or head turning.
Do it slowly and fairly firmly.
You're checking for trapped nerves, which I'm sure you are aware.
For the riding side, have you tried just sitting and relaxing with your breathing and see what he does? Without asking anything of him.
Third - Can you tell me from which nostril he smells you with, does he prefer the left or right side, or does he have to smell you with both sides?
Mel
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This is excellent Mel; good for you. We just never know for sure with these powerful animals about their aches and pains. This could work for Rainy and her mare as well. Great suggestion...Regards Bud
Good morning everybody and thank you sooo much vor these many answers!
I'm sorry that I could not answer earlier, I had a lot of work to do and several visits to the doctor.
Mel, his spine is perfectly fine, he did not react to any of the points you mentioned. He always smells people very excessively, with both of his nostrils.
Sadly, I have to tell all of you, that we (the owner and I) quit our work together, after I told her about some of my thoughts. I told her, that from my perspective, Ruby behaves like a child suffering from ADD. He was always like: "Oh okay, I shall walk", when he got it, but then another horse in the fields around the place where we have been working moved a foot and he was like: "Oh, what's happening over there?", and stopped reacting to me in any way. He was so easily distracted by anything around himself, that I was not even able to do another Join-Up with him on Monday morning. I also talked to his owner about the circumstances under which I was working there: The jumping parcours with grass on it distracting him and beeing too big to work on (about 90x65 metres), the deep wet ground (it rained quite a lot here within the past weeks, so every step I tool I sank in for about 10 centimetres; I even did my Join-Up in the pouring rain on Monday), the horses around distracting him and so on. I came to the conclusion, that solving this horses problems would probably take months of daily training in a roundpen with high closed walls and sandy soil, so that he can't see what is happening around him or be distracted by grass. All of these points are things which I can't afford, so I told her about one of Monty's instructors, who's farm is only about 60 kilometres from here and offered here part of the money she paid me back. I hope she will go there and ask for help, it makes me quite sad not to be the right help for her and Ruby.
So, anyways, thank you so much for the many answers I got here. If you were here, I'd give you some big hugs!
Hi Jasmin
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One of your great qualities Jasmin is that you are not trapped by your own ego. You have been open to all sorts of comments and angles and have been able to recognise when this job is just too big at the moment because you don't have the right environment yet.
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You have everything to be proud of Jasmin, you have been honest throughout. So many horse trainers get caught up in their ego and will push and push because they can't bear to "fail" and they and/or the horse end up suffering badly.
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For what it's worth, I think you made a very wise decision and have kept your ethics strong. Good for you.
Hi Jasmine, I know exactly what you are talking about. Ruby was going to be a project that was going to take as long as it took. There are no short cuts with what you were dealing with. You must go back to the beginning and stay the course there until you have his focus. This is really hard to do when you are trying to make a living training many horses along with their owners. Then, if you factor in inclement weather into the scenario and you have to work outside, it`s almost overwhelming. New owners have no idea much of the time what is involved with getting a horse right for them. I know because we have folks coming to the farm all the time having very little experience with horses and what it takes to be a good steward to care for them; not to mention the riding aspect. Ruby problems with focus probably stemmed from immaturity [that`s a guess on my part]. I think that your advice to the owner was well directed while giving the owner an option for her horse. You can always count on this forum for positive feed back on your training questions, but when push come to shove, you are the person that has to do the work. Please keep us in your loop of activity because we wood love to hear about your AH HA MOMENTS as well as your moments of question. It`s these connections with each other that make us better at working with horses.. Respectfully, Bud
Hi Jasmine. I think, given all you've shared with us, you've done the best you could for all involved. Let's hope the owner takes your advice. The only other viable option, if you have suitable facilities at home, would be to offer the owner first refusal to buy back Ruby from you once the lengthy retraining was done. This requires you have the resources to a) purchase Ruby & b) spend time on him once you've completed your business commitments each day, have suitable help readily available & were willing to take that, not inconsiderable, risk. After all, Ruby might turn out to be a perfect hack but nothing more. To go back to the Production process we discussed earlier, if it's bred for a job it's trained for it & nothing else. Either the horse meets expectations or it's a dud! In Britain 80% of thoroughbreds born never reach a race track. That's a lot of pet food. Some are successfully trained for other disciplines but, if you factor in all those too old to race as well, we have a massive over population of a particular type of equine. Life is full of cold, hard truths. Monty brings us all a ray of hope - he's gone public & brought the knowledge/ his knowledge, to us. We have an obligation to both Monty & all equines, to make the world a better place ( as the Americans would say ) period.
Bless you Jasmine, that must have been so difficult for you. Good point you know you've done all the checks to make sure there is no pain for the behaviour.
Interestingly the reason I asked how does the horse sniff you is that I've found that horses smell mainly from their dominant thinking side. Left nostril smellers tend to be more assertive and right more passive. Those who sniff from left to right or visa versa tend to be more highly strung as if they're still trying to make up their minds.
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Thanks Bud! ;)
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Can you explain this the theory of the left nostril assertive, right nostril passive and the evidence for this in more detail please Mel - maybe a new thread needed for it? I'm confused about the last bit in particular "Those who sniff from left to right or visa versa tend to be more highly strung as if they're still trying to make up their minds." - this statement means that those who sniff from left to right are "more highly strung" but if it's vice versa then those who sniff from right to left are also "highly strung" - do you mean as opposed to those that sniff with both nostrils equally?
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Hi Vicci, it's something I've come across with my Equus speaking. Got it the wrong way round in the post too was my left not theirs. I'll start a new thread as I think it's good to explore this one as part of the horse psychology. Left - passive, Right - highly strung, both intelligent and use both sides of their brain for working things out or not made their mind up ;D ...
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Oh wow, thank you so much, all of you!
I never expected this kind of open-minded answers to me canceling the training of this horse. If I posted this on german platforms, i. e. in german forums on facebook, people would have come up with things like: "See, you're not as good as you thought, you're a bad horsewoman. People shouldn't give the responsibiliy of handling horses into your hands!", or something like that. I have to say that I feared reactions like that a lot, it would have eliminated all my self-confidence. So, thanks a lot, all of you, I did not expect the kind answers I got. This is what makes this forum here even more special and powerful to me. Thank you. I'll keep you updated on my work.
Oh hell Jasmine, no wonder you were nervous!! Good grief, what is the matter with people? Sadly, many forums in the UK would have said the same, that's why I don't bother with them I'm afraid, the raging and insults that people feel they can throw around is just too much :-(
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What I like about here is that we are not "soft" or "silly" about horses (as many people think we are!) and we are able to disagree with each other at times but we always try to behave as adults with respect for ourselves and each other.
I'm not a violent person but when I read things like what Jasmine wrote, I want to punch somebody. (Although I recognize that that wouldn't help at all... LOL)
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Apparently, a lot of people have been so badly treated themselves that they will take any chance to jump at others when they are courageous enough to "show a weakness" and ask for advice and/or help.
I'm glad you found this place, Jasmine! Here you can get help from people who are genuinely interested in helping out rather than from those who are bashing your head in first and then offer a band-aid. ;)
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Btw when you wrote earlier: "...it makes me quite sad not to be the right help for her and Ruby." I want you to rethink that statement!
By recognizing that you had come as far as you could with Ruby and then pointed his owner in the direction you did, you probably were the very best help Ruby and his owner could get at this point.
Best of luck with your business!!!
Hi Jasmine. You did all you could & you had the courage to say so when you thought you'd reached your limit. Of course, mindless, ignorant, stupid people with no horse knowledge would criticise you - that's what mindless, ignornant, stupid people do - they log their completely worthless opinions for all to read. Any of your would be clients that pay attention to these ignorants would be bad clients! Go forth in your business to bring enlightend learning to horses & people with confidence. Your are a good person, you have knowledge to share & you have a really good back up service in this forum. Cheers, Jo.
Thank you, that's all I can say to you! :)
Lovely comment Kicki, we can only do so much. Sometimes the ideas of gentle training with horses is refused at the first go, which I've found several times, when it is we can only lead and teach by our example with our own horses, those we connect with and other people. It all makes a difference no matter how small we think we have achieved.
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