I have a 16 yr old Paso Fino who loves going out on trail rides and doing obstacle courses. At least we were having fun. My problem seems to be progressing each time we go out and trying not to get into a fight.
Cody has a great gait when he is totally connected and listening. This will last for about 5 minutes and then when you ask him to slow to a walk, with the light hands, then it is a fight. He will start pulling at the bit, chomping, yanking hard on the reins. He totally ignores the bit and tries to go faster. I have done circling with him to get him to be suptle and soft, but by the time you have finished your second circle, he starts to go faster like a tight rubber band. By this time he will have his nose turned in the direction you have asked, but now he will have his whole head tip sideways and starts chomping and pulling. If you give a little, he yanks real hard. When he comes out of the circle he goes right into a fast gait. He just doesn't know how to be relaxed.
I have tried a snaffle, bitless bridle, even an argentine bit. He just ignores each one. When I reward him for doing something right, that last for a very short time and then he is back to ignoring to whatever you are asking. When riding in a group, I have had him in the middle, in the back and even up front. If in the middle and back he will walk very nicely, not in a rush. Then the next minute he is trying to run up the butt of the horse in front of him. If you put him in the front, then he just wants to go at his own pace, not relaxed and agains fights you if you try to change his pace. It is as if his brain has turned off and you are not even on him.
I have had a vet check his teeth, which are good. Even had his back checked to make sure there is no back pain issue. Even took him over to a saddlery to see that his saddle fits him appropriately or not Even bought him a new Professional Choice pad....but neither was the problem.
I am now at my whits end and want to find how to get Cody back to his normal happy boy who would do anything for you. How to get him to respect the bit, be suptle and just relaxed and not use up so much energy.
Hi. In 1981 I bought Apollo, an ex polo pony, 14 years old who, judging from his head carriage, had been ridden in a gag bit. I tried everything to get brakes & ended up with a thick, rubber bit. That way I could stand up & heave on the reins without damaging his mouth. He used to yank the reins through my hands, removing the skin from my palms! We were together until 2005, 24 years. He lived to be 38 years old. Once we stopped show jumping & team chasing we tried western & I found, purely by chance, fingertip control. A western bridle with a curb strap that squeezed the nose & acted on his poll. If Cody has been roughly ridden his mouth is probably likewise destroyed. If you repeatedly tap your arm for a minute you'll have no feeling there for some while. Translate that to your horses mouth. Try a dually on top of your bridle, having schooled him with it on the ground. Study the lessons on the Uni - they are all relevant. Rethink his feed - perhaps you've inadvertently super charged Cody. Reduce grain & increase the forage. Hayledge is more heating than hay. Try to remove emotive words, like fight, from your thinking - it increases your adrenalin & prompts his reaction. Also, it could just be enthusiasm - what happens if you let Cody stride on in trot up a hill? That may allow him to burn off excess energy so he can then relax in the way you want. Good luck. Cheers, Jo.
Hi
Something else that will be of help to you in addition to Jo's advice.
Teach him a one rein stop, but you must do this from the ground first and make it pleasurable for him.
Standing at his shoulder, with dually on, gently hold the bridge of his nose and ask him to bend it slowly around to his shoulder where you are standing, do not force it, just a tiny gentle request. He will give a slight release of pressure to your hand, let go and reward him for it. Allow him to lick and chew, once he's licked and chewed do the same the other side, wait for the lick and chew then end session. Do this on both sides incrementally daily until he is happy to bring his head all the way to his shoulder without any pressure.
When he is comfortable and happy doing this with your hand on the bridge of his nose, repeat the exercise this time using the pressure of the dually from the side you are standing. Slowly and low pressure until he is happy to bend his head round at the pressure of the dually to his shoulder. Wait for the lick and chew at each ask and reward him. Repeat the other side.
3rd stage will be to have a roller on him and the rein to be fed through the opposite side of the roller and over his back so that you ask for the bend away from you, teaching him as if you were in the saddle.
4th stage in the saddle, standing still, again all on the dually.
5th stage now try it with the bit, first on the ground, then in the saddle at stand still.
Showing him what you want him to do when the adrenaline is low will help when he's out on the trail.
As always it's just my advice, but hope it helps if you give it a try.
Mel
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I appreciate both comments, and if there is more I would appreciate seeing and reading them.
I plan on working with both suggestions and look forwad to some positive response. Like I stated above, he can be good one minute and then the next he totally ignores you and just wants to go go go as if he was high on something. Did a trail trial and he just blew thru and nearly destroyed a couple obstacles because he wanted to do what he wanted and nothing else.
Again thank you JoHewittVinta and Mel-Ramsgate.
I have forwarded your suggestions to my friend who actually owns Cody. I was his previous owner and had him misbehave a couple of times. But it appears that since his new owner has had him, he was good at first and then this behaviour of his has started. When typing in my first comment, I noticed that part of my typing did not show stating my friend has Cody.
Hope to get more recommendations on how to treat this behavioral issue. Thank you everyone.
He is on a non/molassis senior feed one scoop only, and 1 flake alfala twice a day. Tried oat hay for one of the feedings he wouldnt eat it. I have done lots of flexing both on the ground as well as under saddle. He lays on the bit or jerks his head back when you ask for the flex. When he does occassionally give, its with an attitude. I'm unsure what a dually is only thing I found was online a halter. I even took a whole month and just went back to ground work, lunging, direction changes, flexing, back up, ect. none of these things seem to be helping. I am not a beginner rider, but don't know everything, don't think you ever do when it comes to horses. Have even had two trainers watch me ride to see if I was doing something wrong. Will try the suggestions, also have a trainer trying to help me as well.
Hi. The Dually head collar was designed by Monty Roberts for training horses. It can be used as a bit less bridle too & as it works on the nose not the bars of the mouth you would have fresh communications, if Cody will listen. Do not single line lunge! Use two lines - the horse keeps in balance much better. Study the lessons on the Uni. Think through what has happened to Cody since going to his new owner. He started off ok but his behaviour has deteriorated - why? Could it be that the rider anticipates & in so doing, causes this hurry up? Horses raise their adrenaline when ours rises. Deep breath in & slowly exhaled will help that. Monty has had fantastic success in changing the attitudes of horses because he doesn't demand, he requests, keeping calm, consistent & violence free. Likewise, I have found his methods fantastically effective. You need to look into all aspects for the cause & try Join up. It could be an aggravated old injury, pain in the mouth, teeth, energy levels, fear, habit. Some horses are more forward going than others & that doesn't suit some people. The more agitated the rider gets the more likely the horse is to run off. Good luck & keep in touch. Cheers, Jo
Hi, hope nobody minds but also take a look at your seat? If we have strong horses we tend to ride like water skiers and if you do that your horse will take up the role of speed boat. Try reading Mary Wanless 'ride with your mind' and adjust the way you sit. I've taught riders of all ages to change from riding strong horses that grind/snatch/pull at the reins and even bolters like they're playing tug of war to just being a little more self aware.
Mary Wanless talks about engaging our lower tummy muscles to push down and towards the front of the saddle and holding more of our weight through our things and core so we can engage our horses back and get the lift we need to stop hollowing. it takes a while but your horse will learn to listen to your seat and when you squeeze up with your thighs are try to gather the horse up- will recognise this as an aid to stop/collect. It sounds long winded but give it a read- it will change the way you ride and the results I've had with my students are fantastic. Some horses pick it up instantly like they've been looking for the right rider all their life and others can take a while to adjust.
I realise it will be very different in Western riding so ignore me if you don't ride english style.
I have heard many good reports about Mary Wanless book and theories Becky; this is really useful information.
Thank you for the advise on Mary Wanless's book. Cody's behavior even accures if riding him bareback. Two trainers have watched Cody's owner ride to see if it was the way she was sitting in the saddle. Another trainer has taken Cody out for 4 days in the arena and on trails to see if he can pinpoint the trouble. Unfortunately, Cody resisted more and more each day on no matter what was asked of him. He would finally do it only because he made him do it and not because Cody became soft and accepted.
It is sad to say that Cody's owner will be giving Cody up. She stated that when she took him out today, he tried to run her into a tree and being totally disrespectful. She says that she gets more and more bruises each day from him. This issue with Cody is increasingly getting worse and no longer enjoyable to ride him. So he will be going back to his previous owner to see what will happen.
If only he would relax and learn to Join Up in riding and find the comfort zone.
Hi. Perhaps Cody, being older, has a health problem. Apollo lasted a very long time, 38 years, but what finished it for him was cancer - blocked tube & couldn't urinate. He was grey & they are more likely to have melanomas. Cody is sending signals. Urge his owner to investigate a broader set of options. Good luck. Jo.
Have read through this thread a number of times, not wanting to suggest anything since it is near impossible to tell without seeing the horse (and rider)in action, much less being able to run my hands over him.
I just can't shake the feeling that something is making him uncomfortable or gives him pain. You say you had him first; for how long? Can you remember when this behavior first appeared? What had happened before and where/how did it start? Was it gradual or 100% right away? There can be clues there, maybe not to where the trouble resides, but what he found troublesome at the very beginning.
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By this time I'm afraid the behavior has set into a bad habit because he expects discomfort or pain and just goes with what appears to work for him. It will take lots of time and patience to get him out of that, if that's the case.
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As for *where* the "blockage" is, you say you have had his back checked - did they check the sacroiliac joints? Pain in those regions will cause unwillingness to work on the bit and reluctance to jump among other things. If untreated I'm sure these symptoms will get worse over time.
Try this link for more info:
http://practicalhorsemanmag.com/article/identify-and-treat-equine-sacroiliac-problems
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It could also be his eyes, or nerves in his neck/close to the poll, or even a growth or something such affecting his skull/brain (physically rather than mentally!)
I do hope you find out what he is trying to tell you!
Like Kiicki - I have read through this thread carefully and all the great comments. Cody has apparently become so much worse since you sold him or was he doing this before you sold him? Like Kicki I am thinking how long did you have him? If you had him for many years and you were his only rider then perhaps he is resisting the changed of rider. He seems to have got worse since the trainer took him for the 4 days. This rings warning bells for me. What type of trainer was this and how did they ride him? 4 days with a traditional rough trainer who was determined to " fix" the problem could do unbelievable damage to a horse that could have previously been mistreated by prior owners. A mistake we can all make as we unfortunately trust these people beforehand as we may know no better ourselves. I assume are new to Monty's Uni. as you didn't know what a dually halter was and you have no emblems against your name to indicate your progress through the videos. There is so much for you to learn here. Perhaps your friend who now has Cody can join too.
Have you tried riding Cody yourself since you sold him. Perhaps you could do so and this way you could assess the level of change in him. Even though he is 18 I would strongly recommend that the owner joins Monty's Uni. , buy a dually and start some ground training with Cody. Join up and particularly long line work with the dually to get him responsive to the dually before attempting to ride him with the dually in an enclosed area. The dually can be used as a bit less bridle but the horse needs to be responsive to it before doing so. Tricka is fine in the ménage with the dually but I have less control,with it when riding out. Some horses do have desensitised mouths due to a lot of pulling on the reins in the past or the use of harsh bits while other horses can be non responsive to bits because of the shape of their mouths. My horse dentist pointed this out to me recently. My Tricka is a little hard on the bit despite me being her only rider and all my attempts to be gentle on her mouth but the denlist indicated she would be unresponsive because of the shape of her mouth. When he looked at Uggs mouth - he said " I bet this horse is lovely on the bit" and he is.
Mmm - sorry for the long response above but here I go again! Sounds like it was a traditional trainer that took Cody for the 4 days and this trainer has done considerable damage both physically and mentally to Cody. Doggiedoc your words "Cody resisted more and more each day no matter what was asked of him. He would finally do it only because he was made to do it and not because Cody became soft and accepted." Alarm bells are ringing for me - Cody could well be damaged for life now. These trainers would not be allowed any where near horses if I could do anything about it. But None of us can individually. The best thing we can do is follow Monty' methods and hope that others will join us.
I want to say thank you to everyone who has been posting comments. Each one is full of great ideas and possibilities. I had Cody for 3 years before trading him for a Quarter Horse. I never had a gaited horse before, always quarter horses. Cody was good at first with me, but he did not want to be patient. He did try the rushing just like he did with his current owner. If you went out on trail rides, he was great. He would make a great endurance prospect since he recovers very quickly. I believe it his situation is more mentally than physical. He is in great shape for his age. In regards to my statement of where the trainer was asking Cody to follow the trainer, Cody will do what you first ask and then 30 seconds later will do whatever he wants and ignores what you are asking. His mind is somewhere else and feels that he just needs to move away to somewhere. This is where the battle begans. You can do all your worth to have soft hands, and be patient....but he just doesn't want to connect. I joined Monty's Univ. a year ago, did posting on here to try to help his owner out. Last night I received a phone call from his owner, stating she is done with Cody and will be returning him to me. She has become so frustrated with him and tired of getting bruises each time they go out. She is physically drained from his reluctance. Once I get him back, will start from ground zero in the round pen to see where he is at and what is it that he is doing. Hope all continues with their comments on here. I am aware of how to use the Dually halter, but would never use it as a bitless on him...there is no control at all.
So disappointing for you too but all the best with him once you have him back.
HI doggie - I think you are doing the right thing; bring him home, let hi settle down for at least 3 weeks and then start all over again, imagine you have never met him before and put away everything you know about him before. That way you can keep an open mind and allow him to communicate with you.
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Can I also respectfully suggest that you let go of the idea that he must have a bit in order for you to have control and that he could not possibly use a Dually for riding. Some horse that have had bad experiences with bits respond with great relief to a being ridden in a Dually instead. I'm not saying you 'should' - just stay open to the possibility :-)
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Good luck, keep us posted.
Thank you Vicci....I have ordered a Dually....I am open to try anything to try to make Cody more comfortable and willing to have a good ride and not fight. All I can do is be patient with him and take baby steps to gain his trust back. Will keep everyone who has helped out with great suggestions, on the progress once I get him back.
I think what happens will be for the best, doggiedoc99. I will chime in with vicci and say: "start over from the very beginning!" Go back to the very beginning and pretend he hasn't had any training with saddle or rider.
Hi, doggiedoc99. I agree with you that this in mental not physical with Cody. I read all the thread. He seems strong and in good shape. He seems well trained. Yes, take him back to ground Zero. But here is where I would suggest you go. 1 start doing the Uni, lessons. 2 use the Dully halter.
Here is my never to be humble opinion. He is so well trained with a specific bit you you will never be able to use another. The dully halter will work. Trust me. I specialize in the rehabilitation of horse that are to be put down. The dully halter is my #1 tool. If it works on miserable, misbehaving and dangerous Studs, it will work on Cody. He will love you for it. But you have to use it correctly. And the only person who can teach you is Monty (though the video provided and Uni Lessons.
There is so much more I could say but that would be a novel. Keep us posted. We are here to help.
Let me add this. Once you get Cody back. Set up the Dully halter and go through the dully dance. Do your ground work with lots of Lateral and Pole flexion. Even stretch his legs. Get him as soft as possible on the ground before you mount him. Take a few weeks, go slow and rehabilitate him. He may even need to be desensitized again. Cody sounds very sensitive (not the same as spooky). Which is good because he will learn fast.
Excellent advice and 100% support every word, would add just a little more to do before you start any other work with him even on the dually.
He's switching off from communicating and you need to help him see that you are willing to communicate, his way! There is a process I use to help with horses like this that have switched off. You can see it in their eyes that they totally do not wish to communicate for whatever reason. It is Equus and the horse will understand once you start this.
There is a process detailed on my blog http://melaniehetfield-equineservices.com/2014/11/18/horses-and-your-soul/
This needs to be done before you try any join up or work on the dually. Then several times a week join with his soul to help build more trust! You'll see I mean on the blog.
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Hi Mel, I like your observation that Cody has "switch off form communicating". I agree 100%. I hope you won't mind me stealing that phrase. :)
Generally if I have a horse so aggressive you can't halter him/her. I have to establish exactly what you have said, "help him see that you are willing to communicate, his way!"
I generally try to introduce myself with my breath on this side of the rail out of striking range (I know it's weird). Then shew the horse away from gate or paddock door. Next, with confidence and very erect posture, enter his/her space. Then allow the horse space to strike and or attack. I silently stand my ground. If I need any tools to repel a strike, I generally only need the soft end of a long line. I only use plastic bags to up pressure if needed.
Most of the time just the space and my inner strength allows for the horse to show willingness to communicate. In short, I tell the horse in his/her language, "I free you of your responsibility to be the leader. Trust me... I can lead."
It's all good from then on. :)
That's good Greg, it's Equus you are speaking what what they understand when human communication breaks down.
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Happy for you to steal the phrase, they are just free words!! ;)
Thanks much Mel :)