Hi I'm still new to the uni,
I've had my filly about 4 months now, she's 16 months old. over the past few weeks she has starting to try to bite me.
This happens when she's in the stable. I use the dually with her and the behaviour isn't as bad when she has it on. But no where near as bad than when she doesn't have it on.
I know I'm doing something wrong. I'm just lost how to get her not to bite without the use of the dually.
When she trys to bite me I try to stand my ground and try and keep calm, but I move to try and not get bitten.
The first time she bit someone. It was my partner. She was sniffing his face as he had stubble and I think one of the hairs pricked her noses as she squealed and jumped back then bit him on the arm. He said she she didn't bite hard. And her ears weren't back.
It's only in the stable the really bad behaviour starts, and if she's just had food it's worse. she used to try bite me if I walked closed to her. But I've managed to stop this with use of the dually.
Any ideas to help stop this would be much appreciated, I've seen different ways of stopping biting online. I don't like the sound of any of them, they all sound too harsh.
I think part of the problem being I've not managed a successful join up. We have two big schools, the smaller of the two always has jumps in it, and the other she finds really scary she freezes and starts shaking. I have cleared the jumps out of the smaller school, and once released she runs straight the the gate and won't move.
Sorry this has gone on a bit. Trying to set out my problem clearly. Thank you in advance
Hi Catherine,
Welcome to the Uni and the forum!
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I remember a trainer who said, she wears a Carhartt jacket when working with young horses, so she doesn't have to pull away, should the horse try to bite. If it doesn't hurt you, it has no "gain" for your filly. Now you don't want to encourage biting, but you don't want to show fear as well. So wear thick stuffed sleaves when working with her and relax.
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Is she in a herd with several horses? How is her behavior in the herd, does she bite other horses, or is she low ranked?
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Now you say she bites most of all in the stable, especially food related...
Here I think you need to change your planning a bit: feed the stall, bring in the horse and then leave her alone! Food can be a great item for envy and other vices if the horse feels threatened when eating. So give her time to finish her meal and let her show you she wants to come out again.
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Monty describes how you can teach a horse not to bite: as soon as she bites, kick her shin between the fetlock and the knee, without any excitement. Please don't kick hard, just to distract from what was going on... Next time do it again, and you'll notice she'll start looking at her shin, when she considers biting.
Be consequent and fair! Positive Instant Consequenses and Negative Instant Consequenses, PICNIC!
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A lot of young horses try this out for a while and, growing up, forget about it, so don't worry.
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About Join-Up and no roundpen, there are nice lessons about this on our Uni.
Your girl seems quite sensitive, which is nice, but she could use some desensitization about different surroundings etc. Be inventive and try to show her a lot of new things without getting in distress yourself. The use of the Dually is great, but it's the hands that hold it, that make the difference. Use your body language, so she'll respect your space and not only the Dually.
Be the leader your filly is looking for!
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Hope this helps you on your way to a lovely life with a sweet young mare,
Miriam
Hi Catherine & welcome. I think Miriam means tap her shin with your toe, enough to distract but not to hurt. I have 2 homebred youngsters now 3 & 2 years. Kirk, 14 months older than his sister, used to nip rather than bite. I stood with him for about 12 minutes - blowing raspberries every time he went to nip. Finally I ran out of spit but boys love rude noises & thereafter he was 80% better. That was as a yearling & now he holds my hand or forearm in his mouth - one of our party tricks! His sister was much less nippy & took very little to learn to be nice. She too does the handholding trick but she's always been the gentler of the two. Both have retained their curiosity & will pick up new things or nose at pockets that might contain things of interest. The main thing is to reassure yourself that you will get help from both the lessons on the Uni & from us on the forum. Stay calm & relaxed - this isn't the first youngster to be nippy & there will be a solution; its a matter of finding what works for your girl. At this age she will appreciate short sessions. I've always 'played with' rather than trained my babies. If we got a positive, no matter how small I stopped, even if it was a matter of 3 or 5 minutes. It could be that she's felt too much stress/pressure & is trying to tell you to go slower/less. Good luck & please keep us updated on how things are going. Cheers, Jo.
Thank you Miriam
She is very sensitive, I've already started desensitising her, to loads of things. My yard is very busy so she is getting used to loads of things really quickly.
She is currently in a field with just her and another horse, there is a new horse coming to join them. Although she was in a field with her and two others. And she is always the lowest ranking members of the group. She was bullied my one of the other mares who used to keep biting her quite a lot.
I will definitely try all your suggestions, hopefully she will grow out of the biting a few people have suggested it could be because she is teething. So have put a few bit toys in her stable to help with the teething if this is the case
Thank you
Thank you jo will keep you updated on her progress will definatly try the taping of the leg trick and see if it works.
I definatly wouldn't want hit her that's why I joined the uni. I saw a solution online that said when they try to bite them grab their mouth. I really hated the idea of doing this. My old mare was an ex racehorse and she hated whips and anything that looked like a crop. She was so skittish too. So I wanted to go down a gentler route.
Good morning Catherine and all. GREAT ADVICE Miriam and Jo. Catherine , I commend you for choosing a different path to help your baby to be better. This path will require a little more thought on your part, but sets up a different course of learning for both you and your youngster. I think that you will find that the building of trust will come together much faster and stronger.
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The one question that I have of you would be is when you describe your yearling biting, is she opening her mouth to grab or is she just nipping. There is a huge difference between the two in the mind of a horse. One is an act of declaring WAR on a human and should be dealt with the same violence that it was perpetrated. The other is, in my view, is one of innocent, checking out of the human caretaker. Horses communicate and identify much of their world`s interventions with their sense of smell and touching with their lower lip. When they are young this can be mixed up with nipping a hand or arm without malice on their part. It most definitely needs to corrected so they can learn what is acceptable and what is not. If this happens with the wrong horse, they can be severely kicked and, as a consequence will probably never try that action again[hence some of the more harsh thinking on the matter]. I would suggest that you place her action into one category or another and go from there with your method correcting her. I have raised 30 babies and can tell you that they all do this as they are growing up and finding their way in this world. The correction needs to be done within three seconds of the act or forget about it until the next occurrence. I hope this helps you with your direction in dealing with your filly.
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.Welcome to the forum
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Bud
Bud - I know you are a kind man with your horses so I am confused by your statements "One is an act of declaring WAR on a human and should be dealt with the same violence that it was perpetrated..."f this happens with the wrong horse, they can be severely kicked and, as a consequence will probably never try that action again[hence some of the more harsh thinking on the matter].... as it reads as though you are advocating a violent retaliation. I certainly don't want to misunderstand you Bud, could you explain a bit more?
Hi. When an adult horse bites it can severe a human finger - and I still have all of mine. The attack comes without warning &, like a dog attack, is aggressive & usually final. Dogs are related to wolves & horses are veggie eaters but make no mistake - when they feel sufficiently pressurised they can be just as aggressive &, being heavier, more so! However, horses have a very forgiving nature & want, on the whole, to believe the best of us humans. Until the first person abuses them, they want to give humans the benefit of the doubt - we create our own danger by being aggressive when there is no need for it. Big thing - need to be in control. Well, yeah but how we achieve that is key, by co-operation or force. Humphrey is girthy! I tried Monty's fix but it wasn't incremental enough for my boy. So, we used a 20ft longline around his waist, tied at the clip end, going around his chest & then diagonally over his neck & attached to the breast girth element. This is working for Humphrey. He's stopped crabbing sideways, he's stopped panicking - he doesn't like me putting the line over his back because he knows what's coming but he's starting to believe no pain will come from this & he's walking happily & freely. What was done to him was not agreed to. Go to Robinsons, Kildare lunging aid. - put on with first bit & longlined through the streets twice a day for 45 minutes. No wonder he's terrified! But when I realised what was being done I brought him home, nurtured him & gradually I'm getting my loving boy back. That's twice I've rescued Humphrey - the first time he was starving & had sore gums from teeth kicked out. Yes, my bad choice caused the 2nd needed rescue but better I came late than never. Equines have an incredible capacity for forgiveness. We humans can be just so inept & get away with it. Strive for pofection. You'll probably never get there but guess what - you probably don't need to because our equine friend will fill in the gaps & help us get there. It's a partnership! If you start there you'll probably be on the right track, with maybe some help. Cheers, Jo.
Hi Catherine and all,
This is again so interesting, seeing it from all points of view, I love this forum!
But I think you already knew that....
Now back to the biting girl, could it be that she is very sensitive and needs others to respect her space?
I'm reading "Power of the Herd" by Linda Kohanov, she describes a stallion that was very nasty at biting. Linda noticed at what distance he started to pin back his ears etc. to show her she'd come too close. Right at that point she leant back a little, breathed out and waited for a reaction from her horse. Without fail he'd signalize she could come closer, since she appearently respected his space.
This techique we use with the untouched foals as well, always with a positive outcome.
It's worth a big try!
Please stay safe and keep us posted,
Miriam
Hi Vicci and Catherine; What i was trying to establish was when some of us say my horse is biting and need some advice as how to correct the act, i was merely stating, in my experience, when i first started raising babies, and they nipped me, i called that biting. Through the years, i came to realize just what was happening and why. After that, my whole approach changed to how i dealt with the individual.
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. Then i was witness to a horrific encounter where a mare came up from behind to a trainer, open her mouth and clamped down on his shoulder, picked up the man and through the him out of the arena and over the fence. THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE IN THE INTENT OF THE HORSE. YES, THEY HAVE DECLARED WAR ON THE HUMAN. THAT MIND SET IS VERY DIFFICULT TO DEAL WITH, and my hope is that none of you ever have to deal with that. Monty has dealt with that through the years with wild mustangs. This is exactly why he is very guarded in his approach with his students when they handle the wild mustang. I hate to say this, but in the Arabian horse industry and especially in the show world, many stallions were kept in solitary confinement [stalled for most of their life] and let out to breed a mare on occasion. Many of those stallions became violent because the people that owned them had no idea how to meet their emotional needs.
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.As a foal is growing-up, he learns to use his bottom lip and as his teeth appear he learns to use them also. If the mare doesn`t correct the baby when nursing, and many do not. the baby continues to use its teeth on the udder until one day he really hurts the mare and she send him into the next county with a well placed kick. That is the best lesson that could be taught at the time
sorry i hit the wrong key.
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My point that i was trying to make is, Catherine, if your youngster is trying to inflict pain [mouth open, teeth barred, ears back], in my view, has to be dealt with matter of factly with the same energy as demonstrated by the horse. If she nips you, there is big difference and the human reaction should be much less violent. I use my index finger next to the face while shouting out NO FOR A NIP. This has worked very well for me
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.I hope this helps to answer your questions
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Bud
Just add on to Bud's comment important to do eyes on eyes with a stern look as if you're telling child off as you point the finger.
Mel
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Hi Catherine; I have been thinking about my answer to your question so I re-read your original text. You might look at the different times that your filly has either nipped you or tried to and I think that there might be a common thread that would link all of these times together. I am thinking now of a spacial element of you or one of your friends being too closely involved with what she considers her territory. I would suggest, since this seems to be happening in or near the a barn setting, that you lay down stringent boundaries of where and where not this filly is welcome. The very act of doing this will demonstrate leadership on your part, while letting her know that the key to being in YOUR SPACE IS POLITENESS ON HER PART. Young horses learn at a very young age who they can push around who they can`t. Because they are young, their field of choice is limited so they tend to look for the one horse or person that might raise their status in the herd. When we are alone with our horse, there is a herd of two. I would arm yourself with a short whip or reed to reinforce your your intention that she is NOT welcome in your space until you say that she is [use these ONLY TO SCARE-OFF AND DO NOT STRIKE HER WITH THEM]. My thoughts here are she seems to be getting more aggressive with this nipping as time goes on. By virtue of the fact that you will not allow her into your space should send a message to her that there is a new sheriff in town and you are not to be messed with. This action by you should help with most of the problem [RESPECT].
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.I learned to be very quick with my response to nipping through the years. There are many responses that could be used to deter this bad habit that we could use. Just do not let it go any further without taking action and keep the reaction appropriate. If she is making an all-out assault toward you, then you must deal with that as her entering into the fight mode. I rather doubt if that is the case, however. Most of the time, these youngsters are just trying to connect the dots and we, as their keepers, have to stay ahead of the potential problem. This approach should help you.
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. I know that you are probably anxious to start working with her, but remember that RESPECT is huge for us with these horses and as I see this situation with your filly, if you can establish THAT, your world should change.
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All the best
Bud
Hi Catherine; I have been thinking about my answer to your question so I re-read your original text. You might look at the different times that your filly has either nipped you or tried to and I think that there might be a common thread that would link all of these times together. I am thinking now of a spacial element of you or one of your friends being too closely involved with what she considers her territory. I would suggest, since this seems to be happening in or near the a barn setting, that you lay down stringent boundaries of where and where not this filly is welcome. The very act of doing this will demonstrate leadership on your part, while letting her know that the key to being in YOUR SPACE IS POLITENESS ON HER PART. Young horses learn at a very young age who they can push around who they can`t. Because they are young, their field of choice is limited so they tend to look for the one horse or person that might raise their status in the herd. When we are alone with our horse, there is a herd of two. I would arm yourself with a short whip or reed to reinforce your your intention that she is NOT welcome in your space until you say that she is [use these ONLY TO SCARE-OFF AND DO NOT STRIKE HER WITH THEM]. My thoughts here are she seems to be getting more aggressive with this nipping as time goes on. By virtue of the fact that you will not allow her into your space should send a message to her that there is a new sheriff in town and you are not to be messed with. This action by you should help with most of the problem [RESPECT].
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.I learned to be very quick with my response to nipping through the years. There are many responses that could be used to deter this bad habit that we could use. Just do not let it go any further without taking action and keep the reaction appropriate. If she is making an all-out assault toward you, then you must deal with that as her entering into the fight mode. I rather doubt if that is the case, however. Most of the time, these youngsters are just trying to connect the dots and we, as their keepers, have to stay ahead of the potential problem. This approach should help you.
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. I know that you are probably anxious to start working with her, but remember that RESPECT is huge for us with these horses and as I see this situation with your filly, if you can establish THAT, your world should change.
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All the best
Bud
Thank you their is some great advice in your answers. Will be defiantly try them out with her.
She is very sensitive and a bit over dramatic too. When she goes to bite me she does have her ears flat back. But since putting this post up. She's made no more attempts to bite me. So I'm thinking she may be teething. Will be getting a dentist out to confirm this and make sure she's not having any problems with them
But have taken all of your advice on board
Thank you once again
Will keep you up to date on her progress
my little filly is coming along leaps and bounds now, the biting has almost completely dissapeared. its definatly a food related think i believe that people are hand feeding her treats. i think i have now told most people on my yard not to.
thank you everyone for your advice
it has been a great help