Interesting one, I've been working with Hattie this last week, age 4, thoroughbred cross 15.1hh. The owner came to me saying that she's getting problems, misbehaving in the school and in the stable, she had been cornering her owner in the the stable with threat to kick. She bites when being groomed and kicks for the feet being picked up. It seems even the farrier is scared to do her feet, which I though a bit strange, but when he was supposed to do her feet on Friday, whilst he was doing another horse he said he'd have to go quickly to see to a lame horse so we arranged to meet him Saturday morning 8am. 8:30 am and still no farrier, I left and apparently he didn't come all day!!! One of the other girls that uses him rang several times but only got the voicemail. So seems time to change their farrier. It might be possible that Hattie has had a foal from her colt brother at an early part of her life.
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My initial assessment is that Hattie isn't aware of personal space nor her feet. She must have had too much handling as a foal as she has no respect for human space and barges in as if you're not there. There doesn't seem to be any physical pain, however she's very protective of her girth and the loin area. She has been checked out via a vet. Her feet haven't been properly trimmed mostly due to the farrier and her kicking quite badly. The owner detailed her being cornered in the stables and Hattie turning her bottom to her blocking her way out.
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Join up was quite different to normal, she doesn't know how to run around in circles and kept running just too and fro across the school, the signs for join up were very small so I let her join and followup quicker that I'd have done normally. You could see she was stressed with a high head.
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After join up I've gone through the bonding and eventually got to a point where she'd let me touch everywhere apart from lift her feet. Front ones not as bad as back ones.
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Day 2 join up the same as the first one, no running in circles and signs were very small. I don't think she's had any herd interaction by her level of communication. Her companion horse is the leader and quite possessive over Hattie.
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Day 2 though she's given me all her feet, balance on the back legs is not good so I had to take a lot of the weight on my arm to balance her out.
Achieved back up, walking in sweet spot and halting, which on the assessment day she didn't learn this very quickly to halt in the sweet spot she'd overstep me several times, normally I find they'll learning the sweet spot stop with just 3 tries.
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Day 3 some exercise after warm up walk and trot on the lunge, then some relaxation exercises, then out for a nice walk out into the fields and near the busy road near us. Her companion horse shouted the whole time we were away, but Hattie didn't seem bothered.
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Day 4 both horses were out in their field which is a little bit secluded they can't see any other horses. I took ownership of the field first as the companion horse is pushy. Took about 20 mins of release and pressure on both horses for them to accept me as herd leader. Hattie joined up with me quite naturally in the field. Put on the dually then went to take her out of the field and the companion charged over, I sent her away. Had to do this several times before she gave me ownership over the gate. Quite like it as Hattie just stayed at my side each time I spun round and sent the companion away. Outside the gate ok, cross the road ok, get around the corner and the companion started making an awful racket that Hattie immediately panicked, started barging as if blind panic that something was wrong. Glad I'm not little she'd have had me over. Managed to get her under control going in circles until she settled, then the companion gave even more shouts and Hattie went straight up in the air. So our lesson changed for the day. Separation anxiety for both horses. Took us about an hour of tooing and froing for the companion to calm down, when she eventually did we returned into the field. Hattie settled very quickly when we were doing this so helped with her bonding with me.
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Day 5 farrier day, Hattie was brilliant with me let me have all 4 feet no fuss! Shame the farrier missed it.
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Day 6 watch the owner ride then my daughter rode afterwards. Hattie was very unbalanced in the rear end, but I think that was a combination of the owners nerves and miscommunication. I walked around with them after seeing them ride to encourage a forward walk, which the owner hadn't been able to get at first. I felt Hattie relax into a forward walk with me and the owner noticed the difference.
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Darrell my daughter was with me so she video'd the session, which I think is very beneficial on watching back.
When she was going slow, there was not balance in the back end and it almost looked as if she was gring to balance the rider too. Forward walk saw an improvement, but lots more work need there to improve fully.
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Darrell rode afterwards and said she could feel the shortness the back end at the slow pace, Hattie hasn't really been riden by many people though so when Darrell got on and gave a good contact and a gentle command to walk on Hattie jumped, so we just took a forward walk around a couple of times to get Hattie used to Darrell's seat.
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Back to the stable and Hattie was lovely and relaxed all the way, followed into the stable nicely. Tack off lovely, bit of a swing of the head to bite once, but was quickly corrected. then out of the blue Hattie swung her bottom around ears back backing the owner out of the way quickly. I went in and she turned her attention to me rather than the owner and each time I tried to maneuver her she swung her bottom. Didn't even have to touch her. The owner got out so then I stood in there with Hattie trying to follow me with her bottom.
I've had our Pye do this with BamBam in our shelter and it is dominance so is quite aggressive.
If I'd tried to get out, she would have interpreted that as she was more dominant so I stood my ground, to which she gave me a kick on the the thigh, just felt like a thump so wasn't too bothered, but because I didn't move my feet she moved away from me and I could calmly get out of the stable. Hattie then turned her bottom to the door, so I started to tap her loin area repetitively with a tutting sound in time with the tap. She went submissive and turned, I release the pressure. Then she went back to bottom to the door and it was repeated again. Wasn't too bad took about 4 times of this for her to realise that if she faces us the pressure goes away. when she faced us I gave lots of praise. didn't take long for her to then settle so she could have the head collar on so the owner could get the rug on. Interesting lesson & I think I'm going to have a bruise lol.
She wasn't being vicious and I couldn't see anything that the owner did that could have started it off, but then what the horse sees we don't always.
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If you've any thoughts on what I could have missed fire away!! :D
Mel
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I don't think you've missed anything really, very well set out Mel & you handled her incredibly well. These horses that have been WRONGLY over handled are the worst. She sounds quite Alpha & takes me back to when Lib was a baby!!! The feet they do seem to use to great advantage to keep control by not giving them to you, but you know how to work on that.
The stable is one of the main issues here & you made an excellent start on that by not letting her push you out; they do like to be in charge of their stable don't they! You are right, it is aggressive behaviour; I had a similar situation with Lib once when she escalated to giving evil looks while i was asking her to move over i think, she'd always thrown her legs around, but not kicked me, that day, she was in a particularly obnoxious mood, i stood looking her in the eye & she very deliberately lifted her leg & carefully & slowly kicked my knee with great accuracy - needless to say, she got corrected on the Dually immediately, she'd not done it again & doesn't wave her legs around vaguely in my direction anything like she used to.
One question - when she's fed, is she in the stable when the feed is taken in? If yes, use Monty's "feed the Stable, not the horse" method, take the horse out of the stable, feed in & then put the horse in, This made a big difference to Libby's ownership of the stable & therefore her behaviour moderated. she will now wait outside the shelter until i've put it in & wait for me to come out before she goes in for it, that's a mighty different attitude to what it was.
The separation from her companion work was super & as you said, it really helped her bonding with you; 2 in a herd is a bit of a pain when that happens, but Hattie will be fine going away from the other one, as you said, she wasn't taking much notice until the other one yelled even more. Same thing when i took Lib for a walk in the woods & Eb was left behind, Lib was too interested in going through the woods until Eb escalated her yells to a huge bellow, that triggered the rearing & leaping off all four feet etc, but luckily, she's a "light in hand" girl, so i was in no danger of losing her on the dually & she doesn't barge into your space, she'll dance round you.
At this point,other than continuing working on the groundwork to build the bond, i can't think of anything else helpful.
Stay safe.
keep us posted on your progress.
Thanks Beryl, always good to hear of similar issues and your comments are helpful. I'll check re her food when she has etc and work on taking back ownership of the stable.
Lovely bruise on my leg tonight lol
Took half an hour for the companion separation today, I noticed the other horse is quite lame, so took things slowly so she didn't run around when I took Hattie out of the field. worked quite well and the companion had good communication with me today. if anyone was watching they must have thought me completely nutty the way I was moving my head around to calm her and send her away. Hattie did brilliantly and we went for an inhand hack. She got a bit bolshy when I stood talking to a friend as she didn't want to stand still, She ended up being schooled quite a few times till she stood still. Walk back she did amazing, 2 double decker busses, 5 vans and several cars all passed us on the village road and although alert she remained calm. it's going to take a lot of patience this one. I've suggested she comes out to live in the field over summer would do her the world of good if she did.
thanks for your comments again, always helpful. :D
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Found Hattie's problem, it's not noticeable from the front or rear in moving forwards, on asking for back up and I'm at the front it's not fully noticeable. But I had her side on to the camera and it's her hip joint that's causing problems. there is no sign of pain, but as you ask her to back up you can see a jolt on her right hip as if it's sticking. this would explain her reluctance to lift the back legs and aggression for people not listening to her when she's trying to tell them. Think it's time for a chiropractor and thank heavens for cameras.
that explains a lot!, yes cameras really help, i'd not have been able to tell my saddler what problems were causing Libby's saddle slip without it.
Let us know what they say about her. xx
Will do, she's a visit on Tuesday and they're just waiting for a callback from the farrier.
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Good news with Hattie, chiropractor has checked her over and tweaked a few bits. she's said Hattie is quite hyper-mobile in the back end which accounts for the hip area and the kicking when doing the feet, but she's not in pain so it's a case of more ground work to strengthen and balance. My daughter Darrell is going to ride her at the weekends to put her through her paces.
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That is good news, lots of slow work / walking to build her muscle strength up then!
Lots of slow work and exercises to strengthen her back end. Bit of straightness training too. :D
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Good luck with her, hope she's straighter than Lib, she's still the wibbly, wobbliest horse i've ever ridden, straight is a lot of hard work, but she's miles better than she was as a baby.
yes straight is a lot of hard work, but worth it in the end. X
only get straight by lots of bending, lateral work to equalise the muscles on each side.
Libby is 5/8 Arab, so very agile, it's her shoulders i lose, she can push a shoulder out before you can say six!!
yes and ensure that each side is worked equal, I count every step and bend to make sure. :-)
love to see a photo of Libby x
Look at my profile pic - thats my girl.
http://www.bforrestsaddlery.co.uk/photos_5.html?frm_data1=6&frm_data1_type=large
I'll put a couple more on my website later - must catch up with some work first!!!!
Beautiful!
Ah, thank you Mel!!!
I put a few more on there of me & Libby & Ebby - unfortunately, i was at my most fattest ever when they were taken - i'm very pleased to say i've lost 2 stone since then - Libby sighs huge relief!!!!!!
http://bforrestsaddlery.co.uk/photos_5.html?frm_data1=17&frm_data1_type=all
Update on Hattie, she was doing fantastic until about a week ago. She bit me really hard twice when I tried to enter her stable. I've blogged about it as it's really annoyed me. Quick fixes never work! Had to blog to get it off my chest :-)
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http://equinewithmelaniehetfield.wordpress.com/2014/03/28/horse-whispering-with-hattie/
Hi Mel - what a setback and such a shame for Hattie; clearly in pain and saying "I don't want to be messed with thanks" How has another instructor got involved when you have been assigned to work with her Mel?
Hi Vicci, all done behind my back with another instructor at the stables, I found out from someone at the yard. Craziness and I feel sorry for Hattie.
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Bloody people!!!!
All your hard work undone & Hattie paying for it in pain!
Why are people in such a rush when clearly the poor girl has a lot of problems, only time & correct steady work will get her strong enough for ridden work.
Don't you just love these people that get a bhsAi that ASSISTANT INSTRUCTOR & think they know it all!
I am sorry Mel, I hope the owner see's sense.
That is so upsetting! What is it with people and the fascination for quick fixes? I'm really sorry all your hard work is being undone, Mel. Can't help being curious over how this new trainer thinks and reasons over Hattie's deteriorating behaviour. Does he/she really see it as progress? Why would anyone with any kind of education in anatomy think a problem like Hattie's would be corrected within two weeks? Even without the behaviour issues that is plain nonsense.
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Beryl,
What pity I didn't think to folloe your link earlier! Had I known you had Sweet itch products for sale I would have gone to you first. :)
not to worry, I often review what I sell for sweet Itch as so many things don't work at all & some new ones are coming onto the market.
I used to use Boett Blankets or similar, but last year bought my girls Snuggy Bug Rugs, they need to fit right & you may need to have them altered BUT they are so much more comfortable for them to wear!!!
Not just my opinion but the horses too as i used the Boetts as spares while i wash the snuggy's & Ebony's eyes go very wide & she moves away from the Boett, clearly indicating she doesn't like it; I've found they are full of static too as well as tear very easily.
The "Itching?" is a new product out this year that look interesting.