Hi NM, Welcome to the Uni. You have no accreditations yet so I'm assuming you've gone to the current lesson without starting at the beginning - an understandable choice. The Dually halter is a great tool but, like any other equipment, if used incorrectly it will be less effective. Start at the beginning & you will understand, because it is fully explained there, how the Dually head collar works. Monty uses QUICK schooling not harsh schooling. Enough for the horse to recognise a mistake. He is also quick to reward the desired behaviour. Watch again & you will see there is the weight of the clip plus a tug on soft ropes across the nose, not shutting off any air. It does not create pain ( the horse does not move to be away from Monty - flight animals naturally try & run off when scared or hurt ). I can see why you would ask the question. The answer is this: horses want the safety of a trusted leader. Monty establishes that with Join up. The Dually halter, when used with knowledgeable hands, guides the horse to make their own decisions on the tasks we are setting them. Our responsibility is to ensure that we break down a 'big thing' into little sessions so the horse can absorb it. When they have trouble with that, we accept that the problem lays with us & not them, work out how to break down the task further & present it in acceptable progressions. I hope you find this useful. It's good to question - that's how progress comes. Horses are big animals - even small ponies greatly outweigh us. When a horse or pony feels humans are a threat, we need to create enough space for them to realise that a) we mean them no harm & b) perhaps we are worth another chance. Pain, fear & violence will not get anyone that space/trust. Cheers, Jo.

Hi NM, I've just noticed I've been a bit slow. Monty NEVER refers to scolding, it's schooling - a totally different concept. So, no, schooling is NEVER violent, harsh or aggressive. It is PICNIC - positive immediate consequence negative immediate consequence.  Quick to praise desired behaviour & quick to show the horse they are not right, but without pain - so they can make a different choice the next time. Hope this helps. Cheers, Jo.

Thanks, Jo. We certainly agree in principle all the way around. And I have nothing but the highest respect for Monty, his methods, and his pioneering work towards nonviolent and non-fear-based training. He's my hero, and I'm proud to be his student. Because this is an open training forum, and a written record, for so many students, I must challenge your assertion that Monty never refers to scolding. I have listened to that excerpt in "Dream Part 1" several times and am sure the word is scold. I find other examples in "The Parked Horse" (lesson five with the fabulous Florian Oberparleiter) at 8' 45" and beyond. Is there a way to ask Monty to chime in on this question of how to find the line between correction and force? Perhaps the key is simply that correction - whether schooling, scolding, or negative consequence - must always be mild enough to never cause pain or induce fear.

From Monty to all:
All well-meaning questions and reactions in this forum are welcome because we are here to be good students. Whether you are the one asking, or one of the readers, likely you will encounter this assertion at some point when handling aggressive horses. Please remember that my critics are my best friends and it took your critical comments to cause me to re-investigate Dream, for that I am quite grateful. 

Re-watching Dream, Part 1, I am also committed to my concepts to the extent that I read the remarks from Jo Hewitt from the UK. Jo gives a good answer that strongly indicates that she has watched many of these lessons and is convinced that the work with the Dually halter in Dream Part 1 was extremely effective. Not only was it effective, but it was very quick and the violence the horse intended for me was almost immediately eliminated from Dream’s reactions.

She writes: "Monty uses QUICK schooling not harsh schooling. Enough for the horse to recognise a mistake. He is also quick to reward the desired behaviour.”

If a horse moves to attack a human aggressively but runs into the Dually halter, it is the perfect NEGATIVE INSTANT CONSEQUENCE (NIC). Yes, I closed my fingers on the line and even add a bit of pressure to accentuate the negative consequence Dream gets for his own actions. You do not see me administering consequences unless Dream is actively engaged in aggressive behavior. I watched it closely and asked myself, “Wouldn’t it be good if every aggressive horse could change his attitude as fast as Dream did?” I am proud of what happened here.

Horses are not aggressive by nature around people, they are 'flight animals' who avoid predators. The owner had brought Dream to the demo because this horse had transitioned from flight to fight, and no longer trusted humans. We are observing a horse that defaults to aggression, and it probably always worked for Dream. What I prevented with the Dually halter was the glazed over, pure intent to hurt a human. The Dually was a wake-up distraction that gained Dream’s attention. If the Dually had gone further than distraction and created pain, you would have seen Dream go into ‘fight’ mode, but didn’t. Join-Up was then able to build communication and trust between us. 

Let’s take a look at another course of action that might have been taken. I might have remained passive with a loose line and no negative consequences. That would be a wonderful idea if it wasn’t for the fact that there is no discipline involved. What do you think would have happened if I followed this course? It is with a 100 percent guarantee that Dream would have bitten me and possibly even twisted his body to kick me. So, leaving the line loose would have probably caused injury to me. It is also a fact that the horse would have received a positive consequence from sending me off to a doctor. 

A third course of action might be to get a whip and hit the horse when he shows aggression. It would be a good bet that this has happened before with Dream. What this is called is a ‘fight’ and when a man chooses to fight a half a ton of horseflesh, he is eventually the looser. Neither one of these last two options would be advisable to anyone dealing with the same behavior Dream showed me. Please view it again and see that Dream initiates aggressive behavior and never runs into the Dually halter until his bad behavior caused it. The results speak for themselves. The Dually halter is a fantastic tool to allow the horse to administer his own discipline. What you saw was a very good change of behavior.

Keep watching, learning and remember that violence is never the answer, but PIC NIC is always needed with remedial horses. 

Sincerely, 

Monty

NM
After reading Monty's response to your request, I just wanted to add a couple remarks.
First off I am on the UNI  web site everyday reading the Forum or going over another lesson that I need desperately to rehearse or teach myself,
I watched both videos you mentioned, and, I, also heard the word scold in both videos. And more than once in one of them. But I am also reminded of my childhood growing up around my dad. Who I might mention was a lot like Monty with his actions towards animals. Absolutely no violence.
 My comment is that as a youngster I was Scolded many, many ,many, times while I was in the process of being Schooled.
I completely understand your comment about where is the line is  between force or pain or negative consequences and positive consequences.
I guess that's a lesson we must teach ourselves and make sure when we do scold or school, and  we must be quick with our response to make sure it causes no pain or violence, and a PIC for the horse we are schooling.
I do have to add that I've been working with horses over 60 yeas and I find myself in School almost everyday.
Sometimes from the Scolding I get from the horse.
Best wishes and I pray  that you are satisfied with what you read.
Again, was a great question you posted
Connie Mack

I have utmost respect for yrs on Monty’s methods but don’t use it by tugging as correction that is so physical  when just as easily could move the line to get their attention It is a good tool but I use it differently to get results. Scolding is only usefull if the lesson was taught beforehand and not done correctly instead of the scolding being the lesson itself and learning to avoid the scolding. The timing of lesson can be Positive reinforcement when foals standing still and pat/rub and begin there . Let that be the focus of lesson instead. If they go on a sudden rodeo bucking spree the Dually will refocus attention . I saw well composed foals in videos though not rodeo propects. 

Teachers in classrooms are not able to paddle students anymore and had to think of non physical corrections to achieve desired behaviors for  pupils. It is a challenge but also a strategy to present ways to shape behavior and consequences. Plus keeping composure as a teacher is better form and effective. I am not going to do startle a horse by  jolting them with Dually for easy things addressed with look or gesture to communicate and give a chance to comply with positive reinforcement before going to Dually. 

I had visited an OTTB mare and did join up successfully and had OTTB following up like a pro. The mare was stellar student. Only thing I noticed  was when I stepped back when session was over ,after trying to assess her confirmation that she followed quickly (being an ex race horse was lightning quick) right in front of me for what she just thought  was followup. I stopped her by signaling with my hands like you would a person because was reflex. Moved her back , repeated ,  I stepped back a few feet looked her right in eyes and slightly waved the lunge line low where it was close to ground just as quick to stop as she attempted to step towards me again. She stood still. Movement of lunge line  , without physical jarring stopped her and she stood still. She realized I wanted her to stand still (was not wearing a Dually nor connected to leadline.)  No tug of war. They are smart creatures. Lesson was non physical , a simple movement  can get their attention. Boundaries and lessons don’t have to start with physical corrections to understand what you are asking. I really like Dually for ground work on the  horses that don’t walk beside you or horses pull like you are next to locomotive full steam ahead. Also like the idea of Dually for use in prepping for being ridden, brakes,etc. esp on OTTB used to being ridden by jockeys that signal “go faster” by pulling back on reins/bit  which in non racing should mean stop or slow down. Retraining, foundation and leverage when you need it. I just do not use it with that jolting when asking them to stand still without first setting them up for success by rewarding (pat/tub) when they do stand still even before lessons or sessions so they have association of what is acceptable and expectation with understanding.

Best