Hello everyone :)
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I come by here regularly to read and watch Monty's videos but have not had much to add to the ongoing discussions. The work with Jesse (the horse in my avatar) is going fine. He's very easy to work with and so trusting and sweet-natured that the expression on his face when I tried join-up was one of almost absolute despair that I wouldn't want him near me. He trotted around the round pen once then stopped and turned towards me. I started walking and he followed me everywhere, stopping, turning, backing up without me asking anything out loud, using only body language. So that's all good and well. I mostly do long rein work with him because he's great at it. But he's so profoundly left-handed that at the moment, we're mostly working on trying to balance out his two sides more evenly.
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On to my actual reason for posting. I now have a third horse, Linus - he's also a Swiss Freiberger, 13 years old. He's from the same breeding farm as my other two horses and he was part of the owner's personal team of horses for 10 years. The owner is an expert carriage driver and he's done countless competitions with Linus who's a great leader as well (whether in tandem, or as a four- or six-team). Linus is also a very good dressage horse or can be used for trail riding too.
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Three years ago, Linus had an accident when teamed up with another horse. The farm owner's cousin (who's an expert rider and works there daily) and his son went for a drive in the woods and suddenly a guy rose from the underbrush where he'd been lying next to his bike. The tandem horse panicked and bolted, dragging Linus with him. The carriage flipped over, the two men were thrown out (no injuries) and then the horses sprinted away with the carriage jumbling around behind them. Since then, the owner is the only one who can drive with Linus (this guy has a little Monty Roberts in him) but he doesn't want to use him any longer in his driving team for obvious reasons. So for the past three years, Linus was used as a saddle horse and now, for reasons too long to go into here, he's up for sale. Well, he was, since I bought him.
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I've had him for only three weeks but I already knew him a little bit for having seen him many times before. He's a typical Freiberger - very close to humans and loves being taken care of. But he spooks. Over absolutely everything. Even just leaving his horse buddies in the field. Now, Linus is fortunately a very well-behaved horse who wouldn't dream of not respecting the person who takes care of him which makes him easy enough to handle. But the spookiness also makes him jump with almost every step he takes.
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This is getting to be a novel, I'm sorry, I'm almost done :)
I know that he's been with me for only three weeks and also that his whole world has been turned upside down by this move after ten years in the same place. Time and patience are on my side, I'm sure. If any of you have some more advice, please feel free to air your thoughts :) I haven't done join-up with him yet as the cold and windy rain weather here in Belgium doesn't make for good outdoors work (the round pen is outside) so what do you think about doing trust and confidence exercices indoors? The indoor arena isn't huge so he won't feel lost and anyway he already knows it for having been there and mostly he's a lot more relaxed indoors. When the weather allows for it, I do work with him outside but it's not easy with such a spooky horse.
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Other than this, he's lovely :) In the field, he'll come up, put his head gently against me and stand completely still while I scratch his head. Sighing deeply too. The sort of thing that melts your heart but more importantly shows you that the horse is willing to trust you.
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I come by here regularly to read and watch Monty's videos but have not had much to add to the ongoing discussions. The work with Jesse (the horse in my avatar) is going fine. He's very easy to work with and so trusting and sweet-natured that the expression on his face when I tried join-up was one of almost absolute despair that I wouldn't want him near me. He trotted around the round pen once then stopped and turned towards me. I started walking and he followed me everywhere, stopping, turning, backing up without me asking anything out loud, using only body language. So that's all good and well. I mostly do long rein work with him because he's great at it. But he's so profoundly left-handed that at the moment, we're mostly working on trying to balance out his two sides more evenly.
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On to my actual reason for posting. I now have a third horse, Linus - he's also a Swiss Freiberger, 13 years old. He's from the same breeding farm as my other two horses and he was part of the owner's personal team of horses for 10 years. The owner is an expert carriage driver and he's done countless competitions with Linus who's a great leader as well (whether in tandem, or as a four- or six-team). Linus is also a very good dressage horse or can be used for trail riding too.
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Three years ago, Linus had an accident when teamed up with another horse. The farm owner's cousin (who's an expert rider and works there daily) and his son went for a drive in the woods and suddenly a guy rose from the underbrush where he'd been lying next to his bike. The tandem horse panicked and bolted, dragging Linus with him. The carriage flipped over, the two men were thrown out (no injuries) and then the horses sprinted away with the carriage jumbling around behind them. Since then, the owner is the only one who can drive with Linus (this guy has a little Monty Roberts in him) but he doesn't want to use him any longer in his driving team for obvious reasons. So for the past three years, Linus was used as a saddle horse and now, for reasons too long to go into here, he's up for sale. Well, he was, since I bought him.
.
I've had him for only three weeks but I already knew him a little bit for having seen him many times before. He's a typical Freiberger - very close to humans and loves being taken care of. But he spooks. Over absolutely everything. Even just leaving his horse buddies in the field. Now, Linus is fortunately a very well-behaved horse who wouldn't dream of not respecting the person who takes care of him which makes him easy enough to handle. But the spookiness also makes him jump with almost every step he takes.
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This is getting to be a novel, I'm sorry, I'm almost done :)
I know that he's been with me for only three weeks and also that his whole world has been turned upside down by this move after ten years in the same place. Time and patience are on my side, I'm sure. If any of you have some more advice, please feel free to air your thoughts :) I haven't done join-up with him yet as the cold and windy rain weather here in Belgium doesn't make for good outdoors work (the round pen is outside) so what do you think about doing trust and confidence exercices indoors? The indoor arena isn't huge so he won't feel lost and anyway he already knows it for having been there and mostly he's a lot more relaxed indoors. When the weather allows for it, I do work with him outside but it's not easy with such a spooky horse.
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Other than this, he's lovely :) In the field, he'll come up, put his head gently against me and stand completely still while I scratch his head. Sighing deeply too. The sort of thing that melts your heart but more importantly shows you that the horse is willing to trust you.
I'm in a rush here, so I'll just jump straight to an exercise in relaxing I remember from a clinic twenty years ago with John Moore. Not sure if it will work on your horse, but I'm throwing it out there. Perhaps more Parelli than Monty Roberts, but there is no pain involved and no more uncomfortable for the horse than a plastic bag on a stick.
John parked his horse and walked away from it for as long as the rope allowed, then he turned and approached the horse in a "drunk manner", which naturally disturbed the horse. However, soon as he could put a hand on the withers, the charade stopped and he was "normal John" again. He rubbed the horse and started over.
After only a few attempts, the horse (which was a very skittish, worrywart, SWB stallion) you could see how the horse was offering up its withers when "drunk John" approached, and as soon as he put a hand there the entire horse relaxed immediately.
Now, the point of the exercise was not to make your horse wait for its drunk rider to mount, although that might've been its birth ;) - but to make the horse respond on reflex to a hand on the withers as something that says: "it's OK, stay calm!"
The withers is the place the mares rub to calm their babies, so it is no "magic trick" to this, but to this day my little mare - who btw wasn't nearly as disturbed by my drunk performance as John's horse - can still be calmed much quicker and safer than before the exercise.
RELAXATION;
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In your last paragraph you talk about what a sweetie he is and how he sighs so deeply when you rub, scratch, and love on him. He is communicating with you during these moments that he needs YOU AND TIME to put the pieces back together again.
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I would suggest the Uberstreichen exercises that can be done inside and in a small area. They consist of simply standing in front of the horse and asking him to lower his head [ultimately to the ground when he totally understands what you are asking of him] and holding that relaxed posture until you are able to walk around him while the lead is on the ground and you come back in front of him with praise if he doesn`t move. If he does. then start all over until he understands this about relaxation and he should stand there and relax. The basis for this exercise is the horse`s operating system of being a seeker of grass when grazing and the ultimate relaxation they feel when this is so and grazing has brought bounty and goodness of the chew. You also bring in another core response of the caring operating system that all horses feel when being scratched on the withers by their fellow horses when you do the same thing after a successful completion of the exercise.. If you would like to see this done in real time, go to google and click in the name Stina and the Carrabian horses. That should get you into it.
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Anyway Mariga, that is where I would start with this guy and just give him the time that he needs to build the trust in you and back into himself.
.Please keep us posted and thank you for trying to help Linus.
Bud
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We went to see the horses this afternoon – we go there every day to check that they're OK, to take them out for a walk or to work, or just to stay with them for a while, rubbing, scratching, brushing... As for the relaxed way they lower their heads, yawn and sigh, I'm pretty sure they appreciate it as much as we do :)
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They're in a very large field with two other mares, a 16-y-o and a 3-y-o. The eldest used to be the dominant horse but as soon as "King" Linus arrived, she was pushed all the way down the hierarchial ladder. He won't tolerate any form of rebellion either but he's very respectful with humans.
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There are two ways out of the field – the first is down by a small road right in front of the stables, and the second all the way at the top and the way to the stables leads through the woods and through a small village. It takes 15mns to walk down this way and in the winter, it's a nice little warm-up exercice (the horses are always up there since that's where they receive the hay). The first time I took Linus down this way was Monday of this week. The poor thing was so stressed out that he seemed to be walking on springs so every day since, I've taken him out up there and walked further and further away, doing easy exercices along the way and also letting him graze in different areas so as not to make it a routine. Today was the first time that his breathing remained completely regular the whole trip and that pleased me. On the way back, every time he started trotting, I'd stop him, back him up and then keep going. This happened five or six times and then quite suddenly, he just stayed quietly behind me, head lowered, and chewing a bit. So we'll get there eventually but I have a feeling that it's going to take some time. But that's OK as long as there's progress. I have all the time in the world that the horse needs.
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I will keep you posted about once a week. That's how I like to measure progress myself :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPaqEXQLuWk
Bud
Yes, exactly. And this may be as much of an advantage as a disadvantage in the sense that it's easier to learn than to dis-learn in order to re-learn. I know what kind of horse Linus is, I know what he can do and besically, he has already learned everything. In the saddle, there's nothing to do but give the orders and he executes them perfectly. But he is so stressed out that I'm sometimes at a complete loss as to what to do. Horses don't cheat and don't lie - if he's scared, he's scared. In the field, everything is good but outside, I'm still nothing to him. I'll give us a few more weeks of daily work (doing exercices both in the field and outside of it, in the arena) and if we make zero progress, I'll get professional help. There's no point in maintaining his stress or, worse, involuntarily encouraging it.
Adding to the great advice above, let me suggest you watch the videos on this Uni like
"Spooky Kadina" and "What's in a name" from Monty on tour. In both series Monty helps
a extremely spooky horse, using his 'Lake&Stream' technique.
Helping the horse overcome his fears and face his deamons will build
a new trust between horse and handler. Watch them over and over again!
Linus is lucky to have you as his new owner, your input in his life can give him a new start!
Stay safe and please keep us posted!
Miriam
Funny coincidence - after posting my previous comment, I went through the Uni lessons and settled on the Spooky Kadina videos and I do recognize some of Linus' behavior except for the disrespect. I'm going to watch What's in a Name as well and just keep working with Linus every day now. The weather should be ok over the next couple of days (= cold but no rain) so I'll attempt join-up in the outside round pen.
When you meet him in the field and while you are placing the tack on him prior to leading him into the arena, tell him about the great day that you both are going to have playing games inside. "This is going to be the first day of the rest of your life and stepping stone to say good bye to all of that stress that you drag around with you"
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While leading into the arena, do not look back with the knowledge that he will follow you as if you were another horse heading for water. When you are in the arena, remove the tack and see if he continues to follow you at liberty. If he does, GREAT; if he does`nt, that`s ok too. Horses need to express themselves, some more than others. What he does at liberty will tell you exactly where is mind is. Does he want to share space with you? Does he go to the opposite end of the arena and just stand? Does he run around in a panic from separation anxiety of his pasture mate? From 1-10, what would you say his stress level is? You are a young woman with the ability to bring about the best for your horses and you will probably have some other questions and insights.. What you are trying to do here is to bring about a new start in a training regimen for Linus. We are looking for evolution so forget the DO`S AND THE DON`TS. A good way to tip the paying field in your favor would be to place 5 piles of hay a various spots around the arena and to play some soothing music before you bring Linus into the arena. This creates a new environment for Linus other than just a training arena. Give him some time to orient himself to what is finding. My thought here is to activate his #1 operating system--
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Another idea would be to give Linus a place to go to that he feels comfortable with to rest from the action of being worked with. I use an old tractor tire,filled with sand, located in the center of the round pen for my horses to jump on and stand until they are asked to do something else. Once they get on to idea of the safe place, they love it and usually go their when there is a question in their mind. They actually seek this spot because I believe that it makes feel good about being able to mount the tire. Traditionally, this method has been used for many years by most animal trainers.
Anyway, before this post gets any longer, I`ll sign-off.
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Please keep us posted on your progress
Bud
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I don't mind long answers as I tend to write long comments myself.
And I don't feel frustrated WITH Linus - I understand and respect his fears and I have all the time that he needs to overcome them as much as possible. I don't rush him - I take my time with him both in the field and outside. What I meant by "I'm nothing to him" is that as of yet, he doesn't see me as anything other than a human being who's nice to him. I'm not his leader yet :) And I have a feeling that with this horse, it'll take time.
As for breathing deeply, I do meditation exercices daily and have done so for years now. It helps in every aspect of life and also wth horses.
Back to Linus. He obviously has separation anxieties as well (from his field buddies) but I don't have much of a choice there other than to take him out on his own as much as possible (I don't have access to all that's needed to follow Monty's advice). I don't expect anything from him that he's not ready to give but I do have to take him away from the field in order to work with him. This causes him stress and I spend more time trying to relax him than actually working. I'm hoping that this will change over time.
As for his stress levels... Outside the field, I'd say 8/9. Very tense, prone to jumping at every sound, ready to flee. Inside the arena, his mind is outside :) From time to time, he will concentrate on me and do what I ask and at rare moments he will lower his head and chew. Whenever I ask him to stand still, half the time he'll look at me and ask for a rub on the head and the other half, he'll be preoccupied with a noise outside. If I untie him, he'll focus on me about 10%, I'd say.
I'll try the hay exercice except he's very dominant so it may not be totally safe?
This whole exercise is predicated on the subtle movement that happens in the herd. When the horse in front is asked to move by the horse behind, he is demonstrating respect for the dominance of the horse behind. If Linus is extremely dominate, he might take exception to your role at the time. Watch carefully and arm yourself with a short whip or some kind of a extension of your arm [ i use a piece of styro-foam 3\4 inch pipe insulation about 6 feet long and very visible and very soft] You must stand your ground while expecting the forward movement from Linus. Remember to kiss or cluck, your choice,;horses use the head nod when they move each other. This gets easier each successive move.
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When you enter the arena, he will understand immediately that the normal environment has been changed, and that`s the idea behind a new beginning with you and hopefully new thought patterns on his part. You will aiming for a relax horse and a new start for both of you.
The hay will most likely be the focus when he settles to his surroundings. Remember relaxation on his part is key, so give him some time to chew on the first pile before you attempt to ask for a move to the next pile. In Monty`s words, lower your heart rate and breathing and remain calm. When he starts to eat, notice the softness in his body.
Do not move him until you see this softness from him. Then wait a few minutes while he enjoys the relaxation. This will be total fun for the both of you when the entire exercise sets in.
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Being at liberty will probably be unfamiliar to Linus with as much of training that he has been given. That hopefully will be another, new beginning for him. If you have any more questions or feel uncertain in any area, I`ll watch this thread carefully and try to be there for you. You are doing a great thing for Linus.
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All the best Bud
I tried the hay exercice with Linus today and it went a lot better than I thought it would. We took Gaïa out of the field as well so he wouldn't stress too much and that helped a lot. But I went into the arena on my own and to begin with, he walked around head held high listening for every little thing. But he soon discovered the hay and started munching. I kept rubbing him gently and the first two times that I asked him to move, he was very reluctant at first but soon accepted it. He never displayed any form of menace so that was good. He may be extremely dominant with other horses but he's very respectful of humans thanks to his education.
After that, he started getting a little antsy so my boyfriend brought in Gaïa and we each worked in our own corner. Gaïa completely ignored Linus but he was paying a bit more attention to her. Not so much that I couldn't work with him, though. At one point, my boyfriend left the arena with Gaïa and Linus was in the middle of an exercice but he didn't break his concentration. That surprised me a lot because I thought he would so I just kept asking him for a few more things and while he was a bit more jumpy, he didn't call for Gaïa nor did he try to run off towards the exit. He remained calm and obedient and I'd say his overall concentration/focus on me was 80-90%. Keep in mind that there was another horse in the vicinity the whole time - if we'd been alone, I doubt it would've gone so well.
When I exit the arena, I do a final brief exercice with both Jesse and Linus. I open the gate and make them stand still for a little while. Then I ask them to exit one step at a time with a brief pause between each step. I do this to avoid any rush and they both comply with no problem at all so that's good :)
So, I'm not there yet with my Linus but I did leave the stables with a smile and I do believe that with time and patience, we'll be good friends :)
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Bringing Gaia into the arena while working with Linus I think we can say was a good idea, because Linus stayed somewhat focused on you. That`s super!! I believed that you mentioned earlier that your ultimate plan was to work with both horses at the same time. I have many years of experience with working more that one horse at a time and can tell you that FOCUS on you is a must.
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I would suggest that you continue with the 5 piles of hay until you feel confident with how he presenting himself with you when you ask him to move forward to the next pile. My hope here is that this can turn into somewhat of a playful exercise for the both of you. He should see you as his leader while being relaxed. Also, you might continue to bring Gaia into the arena until Linus is solid with the exercise. If you do bring in Gaia, another thought would be to delay the second horse`s entry into the arena a few minutes each successive time, so that Linus could incrementally get use to being alone with you, hopefully with no stress.
Thanks for the update.
Bud
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Just a quick update on Linus: Things are going a little better. Taking him out of the field regularly - with or without a companion horse - and doing different things every time is helping. He's still spooky but also a bit more relaxed. A week ago, I started to give him a herbal mixture that worked pretty good with my previous horse. Not in a spectacular fashion 'cos they're just herbs but it does help to calm them down a bit. I'm not an advocate for medicating instead of educating but I'm also not against natural remedies. I made an infusion with these herbs to taste them myself and it's quite good :) And relaxing :) (I'm a tea freak and I particularly enjoy herbal or fruit infusions). Anyway, we're on a positive way forward and once the weather permits, we'll do some more outside work.
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(As for Jesse, he pulled a hind leg muscle a week ago, making him a little lopsided from the back. It happened in the field and I didn't witness it but he also had a superficial bite wound on his cheek that same day so I suspect a small altercation with Linus as he's prone to biting the others when showing dominance. The osteopath saw him yesterday and there's nothing to worry about so that's a relief. He's relaxing for a few days and then we're taking up long rein work in about a week in order to build up his muscles and also to teach him to engage his hind legs better.)