Hi Sarah ,a couple of questions.
How long have you had him & have you had his teeth and back been checked? I only ask as my Winter was very defensive when she first arrived and she would barge the door and go for us with her teeth. 2 weeks after having her teeth done she'd pretty much stopped trying to bite, her back was checked and was fine, but she was still a little defensive. It took her a long time to settle in. If you get him checked out and he's fine I would say that it would be worth finding your local MR instructor (using one of the tabs above) or an RA (you can find them on IH website), purely because you have lost your confidence. They can help you achieve join up then you can hopefully go from there.

Hi Sarah. I'm sorry you are having a problem. The behaviour you describe doesn't come from having been fed treats from the hand. This pony has been given a reason to distrust humans - the fact that he was turned out wearing a halter is proof of that. If you had mutual trust he would have been halterless because you trusted you could approach him. I agree with Tiggy, get help, perform join up, build trust with him. Have him checked out physically, though, by a vet. This pony is telling you all that he's not comfortable with human company. Someone has caused him trouble but you can convince him you are good news in his life. Good luck & keep us updated. Cheers, Jo.

Hi Sarah, as it's a welshie I take it you're in the UK. Can you get to a Monty Roberts Demonstration in the next week or so.
I'm going this ....Thursday 29th October 2015 Merrist Wood College, Worplesdon, Guildford, GU3 3PE so could meet and have a proper chat, plus you'll get to see how Monty deals with aggressive horses. If you can make it, book tickets online to get reduced tickets. https://bitly.com/1NmhvoJ

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The one after that is in Scotland Saturday 31st October 2015 Ingliston Country Club, Ingliston Estate, Old Greenock Road, Bishopton Renfrewshire, Scotland, PA7 5PA
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He is being very protective, so try not to feel too nervous of him, rather respect his space. What your husband is doing is good, if he continues to do exactly the same pattern each day that will be a good start for your boy now, don't ask anything else of him except that same pattern. For you, hang around the field but do not go close that you see a reaction from him. What will happen after you leave the field he will come and investigate and smell where you were standing, so leave a small treat for him on the ground,an apple, carrot. So when he comes to investigate,he'll find a treat with nothing being asked of him. don't let him see you hold the treat or put it on the ground, let him just find it, so perhaps swat down and put on the ground behind you. It will start to change his thinking pattern that you are different.
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He does need join up, but from an experienced trainer initially for your safety.
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Do you mind stating where you are town wise in the UK? Even one of us might be close to you.
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We are all on the same path that remedial horses just need a healthy pattern and some equus communication to start to make a horse a trustworthy partner. So keep hopes up, what you have brought might not be exactly what you realized, but with trust, communication and incremental training he can change.
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Mel
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Thank you all for your replies. He has not been here very long and I appreciate that all horses need time to settle plus we are in no hurry, we have a lovely little NF that had issues when he arrived and with the brilliant services of our vet, physio and my wonderful daughter he is nearly back in work, just waiting for farrier on Wednesday. I will be looking into getting him checked as vet coming this week so if we are able to get close enough I will certainly ask her to look him over. The person I got him from told me that his back had been checked but will get physio to check him out when she is over next.

Mel - I am near to Bridgwater in Somerset. We are going to check out how long it would take us to get to Guildford later as we are on half term week and we are members of IH, we missed the one nearest to us due to family commitments. If we manage to organise it, it would be great to meet up an have a chat. We are off to meet up with some friends now so will check back in later and let you know.

Thank you all once again, love this forum, so much support. Lovely to be part of this caring community :)

Sarah xx

Hi Sarah, I have thought about your different problems with this new pony. All of the above suggestions are great and very caring. However, with that said, the possibility occurred to me that what you are experiencing is the mentality of an individual that has been moved from a known environment and herd dynamics into the unknown. I would suggest that you and your husband spend time observing the herd dynamics of your horses and how this new guy fits with his pasture mates. The horse kingdom is predicated on a hierarchical balance and they attempt to change on a daily basis. If your boy finds himself at the bottom of this pecking order, he might be placing himself in a dominate position when he sees you coming into his space. Check-out the intensity of his stare when he approaches you. I am talking about the direct opposite of the join-up procedure. If what I am talking about here is so, this whole dynamic must be flipped 180 degrees. You are probably going to need to get him into a smaller area by himself to achieve a desired change. Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES allow this pony to bite you. When a horse bites a human, they have pretty-much declared war on you. Horses learn from the herd {it`s all about space and boundaries} If you feel too overwhelmed by the sharing of space dynamic, please get some help from a more experienced horseman. With the right direction, this be changed around quickly. A horse knowing his place is usually a happy horse and that`s when things smooth themselves out. Good luck Bud

Just a quick update.

Mel - we have booked the tickets (so excited!) and will be there on Thursday so would be great if we could meet up :) Shall I send you my email/phone number so we can arrange it?

We have also found an RA in the local area so will be contacting her later to arrange for her to come out.

Bud - We have a small herd of 5 here. They have given Tiny (the one I am having issues with) a fairly hard time. However I would say that he is above the 2 welsh ponies in terms of hierarchy. The little NF cross is firmly in charge followed by my NF old boy :) He came from a herd that was dominated by a miniature stallion and a young mare so he is used to be bottom of the herd. I always find studying the herd dynamics fascinating and yes they do challenge each other on a daily basis!

Excellent Sarah, my mobile 07886744113 drop me a msg. We're aiming to be there mid afternoon.
Can you get the herd challenges on camera please, I can tell you what they're saying to each other and if they've yet sorted out their hierarchy fully. Are they locked up each night so the challenges when they're let out or is it when they're grazing after being out all day? We've a herd of 6 and I've been caring for another herd of 5 for the last couple of years. We're all at grass so the challenges are not as often as if they're locked up. Would be interesting to see your guys!
Can I ask Sarah, are you the lead mare of your other horses?
Look forward to meeting and chatting!
Mel
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Hello again, Sarah, Mel asked a very good question about whether or not if your the lead mare. This is crucial for you and the pony for that to be established. If you feel that there could danger involved, tread slowly, but the one on one join-up needs to take place. Don`t be backward about schooling him if you think that he is being too aggressive toward you. This whole procedure is built around a spacial concept on your terms, not his. That dynamic tips the playing field in your favor. He will totally understand this if he has run with a stallion and a head mare. Your goal in the join-up is politeness on his part in a shared conversation of mutual acceptance. `Hope this helps. Bud

Mel - will try to get some footage for you. My herd live out 24/7 365. As for being lead mare - well I have the respect of 4 but not the new one. I have made sure that Tiny knows it is not acceptable to try to charge me by sending him away, I did this by slapping the rope on my leg and making myself as big as possible (not easy at 5'3 :D)
I am contacting the RA today as I know I need help here.
Sarah x

Hi Sarah
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Sounds like you have it all in hand :-) Glad you found an RA in your area.

Update - today we had the vet and farrier out for 3 of our other ponies. Whist we were waiting Tiny came up and I managed to smooth him between the eyes and ... wait for it ... I loosened his headcollar!!!! I didn't take it off but that is the next step! Ok so no I haven't just ridden around Badminton Horse Trials but WOW I feel so good! After this he came over several times just for some attention and each time only one ear went back, I was told this as I was busy looking at his feet so as not to make eye contact :)
Oh and RA coming on the 21st November so all is good :) :) :)
Thank you all I shall continue to update and sorry if I am boring you :D
Mel - I will see you tomorrow xx

Excellent Sarah, and no you don't bore us one bit. We all know what you're going through and enjoy the excitement of little achievements as you write them, so do keep letting us know! Well done and see you tomorrow. xx

Great news, sometimes it just happens, gently gently catchy monkey as the saying goes. It's now been his decision to come to you, he's not been forced and the attention the others are getting he's quizzy..Who's the RA being nosey..

Fantastic! I know exactly how you're feeling - it's so great when they come to you for the first time. It sounds like you have good, hands on help so I'm sure you'll soon be posting news of your successes, which we all want to hear about. Have fun at the demo, with Mel. Cheers, Jo.

Aw thanks Mel and Tiggy. The RA is Bronwen Packham :) She comes highly recommended and sent me such a lovely response to my initial enquiry. We have had such a successful day here as we also managed to get my daughters NF pony's hooves trimmed and his teeth done. Plus Wispa (my NF) and Rodney (Welsh) hooves trimmed too! Now all I need is a lottery win to make my day perfect :D xx

Opps cross posting :) Thank you JoHewitt. I love this forum, one of the friendliest I have ever posted on.
Thank you all xxx

Hi Sarah. You so right in your talking about the friendliness of this forum. These folks seem to be REAL and caring. They all are looking and hoping for your success. This is because, I believe, that they have all been there-needing knowledge that they don`t seem to have at the time. Yet their desire to problem solve is very strong.. With these animals that we bring into our hearts comes a longing from us to join them in their joy of life, but we all soon realize that there are many lead-up steps before we can truly be in concert with them. I have been riding down the trail for 77 yrs and learn everyday from both the horses and these good people on this forum. I visited Monte about 15 yrs ago and picked up many tidbits of information on my journey. Since then, I learned of the on-line university and all I can say is WOW. Keep-on trucking girl, you're going to get this handled. Bud

I hope you don't mind me adding a little bit, reading from the beginning. When a pony is grumpy when you're approaching it - from what I've learned from on here and Monty R, if you walk away you're rewarding it. When I approach a horse and it puts it's ears back and doesn't want to be caught I send it away from me until it shows communication it wants to change it's mind. I did it yesterday with a mare - she walked away - ears went back a little and she didn't want to be caught - so I did eye on eye and flick the lead and saying 'okay then you are welcome to run away if you want to' and then in a few seconds of being sent away she was turning her head towards me and I turned away from her and she walked up behind me immediately. I turned to her and rubbed her forehead then walked a few steps away from her to reward her coming to me voluntarily. Then I was able to turn slowly back to her and put the halter on, and reward her with another rub on the forehead. So I guess I'm just reminding that if a horse is aggressive towards you - walking away will reward that behaviour. You're letting them send you away instead of the other way around. You don't put yourself in danger, but you let them know if they're going to try and send you away - you'll be sending them away instead. All the best! :) :) (And once you've safely caught the horse/pony it's a matter of assessing if they have a medical reason to be grumpy. :) :) As others have already said.) Take care. :) :)

This is a really interesting thread....and I thought I'd said what I need to but as Bud says, we never stop learning...!
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This business of sending away a grumpy horse...I think we need to be careful. We need to understand WHY the horse is grumpy. Taking a one fit for all approach (sending it away) might be misunderstanding what is going on. As Jo said earlier, the mistrust of humans can lead to this behaviour. However, I also agree that we must be safe at all times and we must not have a "pay off" for the horse i.e. he must not be successful at sending us away.
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I love Mel's observation that the horse will come and check out where you stand - I hadn't thought of that; amazing!
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I am a great believer in ignoring grumpy horses. I once worked with a young girl whose horse charged at her full pelt every time she went in the field. What made it worse was that others had hit it every time it charged but some had of course run away so one very confused horse! So sending away was potentially dangerous too as he perceived that as potentially violent. So what did we do?
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I gave her a two week plan (adapted accordingly as progress was made/not made). She had to do it 5/6 times a day. First couple of days go in the field, pick flowers, poo, whatever come away. Ignore him totally, no eye contact, nothing, stay well away. Days three and four go say hello to his mates (ignore him totally) day five and six say hello to his mates, briefly stroke him go away....At this point I told her to vary everything so within the 6 times a day she might do any one of the various options so he never knew and could not predict what she would do but it was always nice and kind thats all he needed to know. I went back after 2 weeks so see how she was doing. She said "wait there". She walked into the field, he walked up to her, she put a headcollar on, and he walked out as calm as anything. My heart melted. This angry little horse just needed time and consistent kindness.
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I share this story not to say any of the suggestions are wrong, all the advice here is great. It's just a reminder I guess for us all that there are many ways to tackle a problem (as Bud says, we are serious problem solvers on this forum hahaha).

Once again thank you for all your help. I went to a Monty R and Kelly Marks demo last night and learnt so much. Time to put my new found knowledge into action - yep the brave pants are on!!!

I also have a HUGE apology to make - Mel I am so sorry for not catching up with you after the demo. My phone battery died and I did not get your message until the phone was charged! I did look for you afterwards but as you know there were so many people. Plus I had a very tired 11 year old daughter. It was lovely to see you however for a very brief period. Maybe we will be able to meet up sometime again :) xxx

I'll text you Sarah. Xx
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RELEASE, REWARD, RESPECT
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I thought I'd add an extra title in here as there has been something that has bothered me in the horse world for some time and that is it's the human right to tell a horse what to do and expect it to do it because we say so and without listening to the horse. Should the horse be allowed to say no or should it have to listen to our every demand.
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When we go to catch any horse in the field it's normally our personal time that we've assigned to do a job that dictates how quickly 'we' want to catch the horse. When the horse say no by pinning it's ears back, running away or anything else do we then listen to the horse that something is not quite right and step back to see why the horse is saying no. Or do we continue to insist that I,m going to catch you and you'll do as your told.
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With my living out with the herd as much as possible even during the night in summer time, the horses say no to each other on a daily basis sometimes there is insistence from the hirachy horse to do as they are told and other times its not so important and they just walk away from the horse that has said no. The communication between the herd gives respect for each other whether it is important to say actually yes you will listen or ok not a problem I understand.
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Putting this into the human / horse world should be the same. We shouldn't expect our horses to do something applying pressure to do it until they give in and then rewarding. We need to be respecting too what the horse is saying to us and finding out why they are saying no.
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Example what if the horse pinning his ears back said 'not just yet let me have a few more mouthfuls of grass then I'll come with you.' his only visual communication in telling you not yet is to pin his ears back, he's not being aggressive he's communicating. is it right then to apply even more pressure to send them away until they give in to you? Have you listened to the horse, have you listened as to why he said not yet.
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By not sending away immediately we establish first we are willing to listen to the horse, we release the pressure that we have already put on the horse by saying I'm coming to catch you. We reward by waiting just 5 seconds we can normally see what the horse was trying to say. It could be we've walked up too aggressively, it could be something simple like we've a new scent on us that he doesn't like and that scent has reached him first. By not jumping in and applying pressure straight away we create an understanding with the horse and build a mutual respect between each other. This alone will make catching your horse in the future easier.
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The process of applying pressure when aiming to catch your horse because it's pinned it's ears back as in a join up method can cause additional problems in catching your horse as it can become ritualistic where you have to do it every time, which is an incorrect way of using the communication and the horse will come to expect you're going to do it, so why come to you at first anyway.
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Understanding first why they are doing it rather than being reactive and apply pressure immediately because they didn't do what you want ed straight away will bring better communication between you and your horse. Once your horse sees you are willing to listen to them they in turn respect you and become your willing partner too.
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Monty's words still ring in my ears from years ago that it's not the tools that do the damage but the hands holding them. Applying pressure in an incorrect circumstance before listening to the horse can cause more damage and create problems. Listen first, see why during those few moment when you see why they've reacted why, in those few moment your horse will have already made its mind up, do I trust you or not.
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Remember too our horses live in the now, they don't know what kind of day you've had, so if it's been a really bad day they your horse will sense your negative vibes and no they won't want to be with you. So remember to breath and let go of any negativity that you've picked up in the day. It will do you and your horse the world of good.
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We want a willing partnership, which has to come from both sides. In a willing partnership both sides listen, both sides speak, both sides are willing to conceded and let the other make a choice. When we ask our willing partner something, they normally say yes ok I'll do that for you, if they say no or not yet, we must listen as to why they've said that.
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Mel
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Passionate about horse communication.

Mel - be good to hear from you and I agree with all of the above.

I have an RA coming over in the next few weeks and from what I have heard she is fantastic as both a horse and human trainer. I have so much to learn even though I have had horses/ponies in my life since I was 4 and I am now .. well lets just say much older :D As a teacher myself (Primary education) I hope I never stop learning, listening and doing my best to understand.

Much love to all xxxx

Good example of a horse saying no today. Pye didn't want his rug on before I went, so we'll see what he thinks in the morning, lets hope the weather isn't too bad and he knew something I didn't.
Will be in touch Sarah, you'll learn lots from the RA!!
xx

My boys are sweating buckets Mel, it is so warm at the moment and they have their winter coats so I think you'll be ok ;-)

lol, I think our little patch of field gets hit harder than you sometimes Vicci. We get the north wind off the sea and it bites!
Here's my guys playing in the fog this week :D Apparently all around was clear except our fields. Different ones that came onto the field said it was like driving from sunshine to a white blanket wall. https://youtu.be/mzuXtXZJ3dg

UPDATE
Bronwen came out yesterday and we had a very successful session, despite the howling wind and rain! Both Tiny and myself learnt so much! Tiny is now happy to be approached have a rub and then left alone. We have a plan of action for the next few weeks before Bron comes out again and I am very happy to say I see a wonderful future for myself and Tiny :) Amazing how my confidence is slowly coming back and I now look forward to being in the field with my boys!

Once again thank you to everyone that took the time to comment on this and for all the helpful advice! I shall be back with future updates :) Love to all xxx

Hi Sarah,
Wonderful news from your side of the planet!
I'm really looking forward to your next posts, so we can see and feel Tiny and you grow!
Miriam

Wonderful news about your confidence, Sarah. It is such a relief when you finally start to let go of all the misgivings and anxieties that play havoc in your mind.
The horses sense that in us - there is no doubt in my mind about that! - and I am sure it puts them in a stingy mood as they don't understand why there is this sense of nervousness around them.
Fingers crossed you will find it easier with each visit!
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I noticed that you are a primary teacher; I am in kindergarten. :) Sometimes I can see similarities between how horses and kids react, so clearly. Walk nervous or anxious into a class room full of teenagers (or any age, really) and see what happens! Ha-ha! Horse may bite - kids will eat you alive. ;) ;) ;)

Thank you :) My confidence took a battering years ago and I am just beginning my journey to getting it back but each day is getting better :)

Kicki - never nervous of my primary children but used to teach in a special school for teenage boys with behavioral/emotional problems. Was the scariest experience of my life! Chairs regularly came flying my way as did tables, cabinets in fact anything that was not bolted down. And the language - well let's just say I learnt some new words :D xxx

Well done Sarah!!

You said he's 14.1. Has he been ridden or handled by alot of children? Alot of ponies are only considered to be "kid friendly" because of their size and cuteness factors. Children often create many pony behaviour problems because of their smallnes and lack of knowledge and common sense. I had a pony I worked with that tried to bite me all the time but it was because he's impatient and learned that the kids would feed him. Honestly it sounds like you are creating a monster. The pony is learning that all he has to let you do is touch his face and then he gets to be left alone. I think he probably is scarying you more than he needs. If you don't feel comfortable taking him out and riding, at least get his halter on and do some ground work in the pasture then round pen etc. He sounds like he's very intelligent and is learning to bully you and your daughter because your afraid and not your husband because he's not. Pony do respect size also so if your husband is taller he may be more willing to view him as a leader.

Hi HorseCraZ, feeding horses by hand is a general reason why horses tend to bite, which is why Monty is very much against feeding treats to horses. Not sure where you got the 'creating a monster' bit from. ;) Lots of hard work to over come old fears and move forward with a new horse that had biting issues. Think Sarah is coming on well in changing the behaviour problems she's encountered with her new horse.
How are you getting on with the lessons? Have you managed to do the questions after the videos so you get your rosettes?
Mel
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I'm sorry HorseCraz but you're wrong! I'm nearly 60 & under 5 ft & I can be leader! Tiny steps, take your time, give your horse a chance - I made the mistake of sending Humphrey to a professional to be broken at 7 having been gelded at 6. I was horrified by what was done to him, brought him home & got an assistant. Stan is ADHD, doesn't ride & has a fear of horses having been reared off & kicked as a teenager. Know what - 3 month on & we have a rideable Humphrey & Stan, the 24 year old who was frightened of horses, loves Humphrey to pieces, climbing out of his sick bed to see him. Good stuff happens - you need faith. Cheers, Jo. PS - Monty met Stan at the Glasgow demo on 01.11.15. Stan was blown away by Monty.

Thanks again for your comments.
Mel - I am watching the videos and answering the questions but have no rosettes yet as I need to watch more! Kids just gone to their Grans for half an hour so good time to catch up on some :D

Hi Sarah. Once you get to 100 you'll start collecting. Happy 2016 to everyone. Cheers Jo.