Hi all
I hope i wont bore you all to death with my post, and im sorry for bad grammar im from Denmark.
I have a 3.5 year old gelding. Hes been with me for 1.5 year now, but during the last year hes been acting more and more like a stalion in many ways.
I love him to bits, he is so funny and charming when he is in his comfort zone. Problem is he is very difficult to handle outside "his area", my wife has given up on him she cant handle him anymore shes afraid and gets nerveous wich makes it all worse.
I feel im connected to him in a way, i refuse to sell him. i want to make it work but its so hard and frustrating, i have 3 other horses and they all make me feel happy even though they have issues of their own too, i want to be the leader here and feel the same way about him too.
The issues i have with him is that when walking/leading him its a constant battle of who leads. He will try to walk faster all the time, he will chew on the rope and when im very persistent and he gets stressed he will try to Rear.
For the last 3 month i have been recieving some personal horsemanship training, even though i have ganed som tools to control him the problem is not solved.
I feel its going nowhere. You need to focus 100% everytime you handle him i think im being very persistent while trying to remain calm, breath slowly and not get angry. When he pushes og anything i dont want him to do i either turn him around or make him move backward a few steps.
I have been studying Monty Roberts ways for a while, and after alot of thinking i finally decided to do a join up of my own.
I hope i got it right, atleast i think i did. It took me 1 hour but i fumbled alot in the beginning, misread signs, posistion ect.., but after awhile i felt in control.
He started chewing and had his inside ear in my direction (not sure about the head because he always like to trot with his head down), so i did the follow up and he was gentle as a lamb. I walked for 10min with him back to the field without any issues.
The day after i was so happy and wanted to take him for a walk, but its like he forgot everything from the day before. His behavior might even have been worse (pushing, biting etc.)
I decidet to press pause and gather more information to decide if i should do more join ups or go in another direction.
Im also confused about the follow up, because on the field he always follows me around everywhere, but with little respect of me (pushing).
I hope that some of you on this lovely forum got any suggestions on what my next step should be?
Hi Frank, it sounds like you have quite a character there. Please don't apologise for your grammar etc. I can't speak a word of Danish so have no right to make any criticism!
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First think I would do is get his mouth and teeth checked, just to make sure the rope chewing isn't a symptom of mouth pain. If all that is ok then proceed. Second, are you using a dually? If not I strongly recommend you get one asap
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I think your boy has a very strong personality and he needs immense consistency i.e. every single time he steps out of line he needs correcting. I suspect that his correction has been variable and not always instant. For example, the second that his nose goes past your shoulder when leading, back him up, not when he has gone 3 feet on, instantly his nose passes you.
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You mention that you have been having some horsemanship training, are you being consistent in your methods? Does what you are being taught fit with the Monty teachings?
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Following you in the field - I suggest he is not following you as such but pushing you around, remember "Whoever controls the feet controls the relationship".
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About the Join Up: I'm really glad it went well, it was a bit long but like you said, its first one and it sounds like a success so that's great. However, I feel you expected too much afterwards. Join Up will not fix a leading issue, Join up establishes leadership and trust. Your boy has developed some bad habits (and possibly you and your wife have too) and that will change with consistent work. I would see no problem in doing a couple more Join Ups with him and use that as a new day and a new start. Forget everything that has gone before and imagine you have just got him and you are going to create a strong foundation. I'm sure many others will have some good advice for you but I thought I'd start things off :-) Good luck, let us know how it goes.
I think you have said it all Vicci! Great advice. Certainly with this headstrong, challenging horses consistency is the key and the correct use of the dually. Instant correction and instant release for the slightest response. Watch as many of Monty's videos where he is working with difficult horses as you can. Each horse has such a unique personality so training methods need to vary. Sounds as if your fellow needs you to be quite forceful with the dually but do remember the reward is the release and he will need your encouragement too. Gloves, helmet and a longer lead rope will keep you safer as you train him - remember to breathe correctly too and try to stay relaxed. Have fun and stay safe.
Good point about the hat, gloves, and lead rope length Maggie, I always forget to say that bit! ;-)
Thanks alot both for your suggestions, especially the part of letting go of the past And start over after a few join ups. Your right vicci im not consistent everyday, after a hard days work he can be a handfull.
I will try to stay safe and work on this, will keep you posted!
Good luck Frank; yes, you do need to be consistent & quick to correct him & you will need 100% concentration.
You say that during the past year he has got more stallion like in his behaviour - was he gelded when you got him?
It is possible that he could be a rig, meaning that one of his testicles is retained in his abdomen, if this is the case, he will be dangerous to handle, this is something you must ask your vet about now!
I think a blood test would show if he's producing more testosterone than he should be.
Ok todays update!
I dont think hes in pain because he never chews on anything else but the rope (and thats is when hes stressed) and hes been chewing on that rope ever since he was a foal so im proceeding for now..
Vicci your right, i will let the vet check everything within the next days just to be sure.
I did a Join up today, and i told my wife to watch me just help see the 4 gestures and correct me. Jack joined up with me after about 7-8 minutes today, so that part went well and i did the follow up after and it went well.
I dont know if this is normal behavior, but this is one stubborn pony! He was very hard to handle when we went back to the field.. Testing me in everyway he could think of, its like hes fighting really hard now for his leader position.
This feels like a manhood test, really difficult one :-). Abit dangerous too sadly but i know how to remain calm and position myself.
I bought a herbal product called perfect gentleman for agressive geldings i hope this help abit too.
beryl:
I did talk to Vet regarding this, he didnt think there should be any testicles left, but there was a chance of some leftover tissue, and recommended a blood test too.
But where does that leave me?, lets say the test show too much testorone, im not sure i would take the risk of surgery.
I would rather accept him being like a stallion and take it from there, i have seen plenty of stallions behave nicely in time so he could too with proper training?
Or is it worse if the have a testicle in the abdomen beryl?
Great news on the Join Up. Of course he's testing you, for 18 months he has been able to do pretty much whatever he likes and now all of a sudden the rules have changed and you have taken charge of the situation - he is protesting a bit :-)
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Beryl has made a good point about being a possible 'rig' however my instincts are telling me this is not the case as he is not behaving in 'full blown stallion' manner and the Join Up has been very easy (can be trickier with a stallion type as they are the masters of moving people around!), however, it is possible, and I fully agree with Beryl that a blood test would be useful. Knowing whether his testosterone levels are too high or not will give you what you need to make an informed decision. If he is, and you decide there are no health risks to leaving him as he is that's fine but then you know that you have to think of him as a stallion and all that entails. If he is not, then you know that this is a behavioural/strong personality/inconsistency issue. Knowledge is power - for the sake of a blood test you have nothing to lose and a lot to gain. :-)
Dear Frank. If you want to use Monty's methods it will be very important to add a "Dually-lesson" after the Join-up procedure. I see the first step in leading him and backing him up in a quiet place, planning as much "positive instant consequences" as possible. He will get angry if he is constantly corrected. The second idea: You probably know the places where the horse makes problems. You should try to find out why or avoid it. The behaviour might have become a ritual.
Good luck and stay safe.
Rudi
Rudi makes a very good point about the ritualistic aspect of behaviour; we can, without thinking, accidentally collude with and reinforce the rituals.
Hi Frank, yes, a rig is more dangerous than a stallion, they can be very unpredictable indeed as well as being very frustrated. The only person who can give you qualified advice is your vet!
He may not be a rig, which would be very good news for you, it will in that case be down to constant, consistent knowledgeable handling!!!
Rudi as usual makes a very good observation, follow his advice.
Can you find someone near you who practices Monty's training methods who could come & watch you handling him & help you?
Thank you everyone for taking time to give your thoughts here. Theres so many wise words being said here :)
A small update today! it has been raining for 2 days so i havent been training with him properly. But i did have him in my hands both days walking him from 1 field to another and taking him to the stable to dry out for the night. He was actually behaving, it was only a 5 minute walk each time, but still i only had to correct him very few times. Not that i think everything is fine suddently, but im just saying atleast hes not a bully all the time :)
beryl: I didnt know that about rigs it sounds very serious! will get a test done when im able to. I have realized i need to stick to doing only one training method, and i desided going MR every step from now on. Theres a certified trainer nearby and i have been writing to her but she's busy for 4 weeks or so, but i hope that she could help abit if shes not too expensive.
I understand that the dually halter could be very usefull and i will get my hands on one asap i only have a stalion chain that i really dont like to use unless in puplic.
What do you guys think would be the best, sit on my hands now and wait until i have the halter and get advise from the vet or proceed, doing a few joinup's and teach him manners while getting things done along the way?
Rudy: Its a really good observation your making! There is a few places we pass walking from the stable to the field where he its like a Ritual, like the big stone og walking over the small stream.
An observation of my own is that after i take a walk og do a small training session with him, he gets abit mad just before i put him on the field again, he dont want me to let him go. This part i really dont understand, we have a perfect herd, they all get along very well, he should be happy to go back.
Another thing is he wants my attention all the time, when ever he see me he will canter and get to me fast. Hes like a big puppy who wants to play, and thats maybe where i have failed i gave him too much slack because he was being funny and cute.
Frank, I sense the light is dawning...your anlaysis of the situation is all coming together :-0 Stallion chain?! Yuk, no wonder he's grumpy! hahaha Big puppy wants to play? Big no no! Your plan is sound, just go steady, book the MR instructor, get a dually asap, intercept the ritualistic habits and enjoy :-) Keep us posted, looking forward to hearing his progress.
Ooh Frank! Didn't realise you didn't have a dually for your fellow. Not sure how you have managed at all without it with a horse of his nature. Personally don't like stallion chains at all and as you have obviously built up a strong if inappropriate relationship/ bond with this horse it would be a pity to damage it with a stallion chain. What he needs now is the dually and consistency with the use of it so that he learns to respond to you as a leader. Currently he is just having fun with you as he sees himself as the leader and you are something to play with however the relationship you have should be a good base to build on with his training as he obviously trusts you and likes you. I would do minimum with him in terms of training until you get the dually. As Rudy points out training with the dually is an integral part of join up and Monty points out in at least one video that your horse needs to be trained to the dually before you attempt join up - from memory it is one of the series on starting a young horse. Hope the dually arrives son and then you can look forward to a much better relationship with your horse. In the mean time watch ax many of Monty's videos as you can where he I is working with difficult horses with the dually and get those blood tests done so you know what you are dealing with. All the best and look forward to future posts.
By the way well done for your progress without a dually!
Frank, you are now on the right track, stick to one training method only, good for you!
I hope he isn't a rig, but it is very important to rule that out for your own safety.
Let us know how his behaviour is going, You will find the Dually will help you enormously.
I feel it Can only get better Now, i have plenty of things to do Now :-) i Will post my progress soon enough.
Hmm everytime i want to post a small update on our progression, i end up writing alot! I hope its not too much nonsense.
Im working on getting the bloodwork done and getting the MR instructure here, but it will take some weeks.
Meanwhile im trying to do whatever i can, hes 3 years old so theres no time to waste really and. Hes growing really strong with great muscles and bone compared to our 4 year old mare of same race who is a great riding horse already.
I gotta be honest with myself i spent alot of money and time on this one allready, is it too much to ask that i start getting something in return? Im thinking of letting him wait till hes 4 until i brake him to ride because of his currently state, but i really wish it could be otherwise. Sure MR himself could probably have him all set up in a few days, but what troubles me would it be fair to him or realistic to brake him in at the end of this summer?
I finally got my hands on a dually yesterday so i will just let you know how it went the first time introducing it.
I took him just outside the fence on a quiet spot, the other horses didnt pay attention to him they just ate, so no distraction there.
I tried to copy a few exercises Monty did on a video, nose in line with shoulder when walking and standing still for 20-30sec went well. I struggled with backing him up with just the dually, but we are both on a learning curve my pulse and breathing was out of control and my tecnique was bad. Good thing thing is Jack was actually really nice yesterday just abit confused, but i only took him out for 10-15mins making sure i could end the session in a positive way.
I stopped handfeeding him for good now using a bucket instead, and i will see if it helps with the biting.
Correct me if im wrong because i could very well be fooling myself because i had a few victorys's in the past 2 weeks. Im starting to think theres nothing wrong with Jack, he might be harder to handle than the average horse.. yes but hes also just a spoiled kid who need to learn ground manners.
I really cant shake the sentense out of my head "look in the mirror", because i did! This is the very first horse of my own with my name on, to teach everything he should know. I have been afraid of horses until 2 years ago where my wife bought her first and we decidet to get a place, now i have a ex racehorse im riding (reschooling), and this fellow.
Hi. Relax! You and all your horses have entered a GREAT place. MR training will get the job done. I too have a small herd. I've used a dually head collar for a number of years, including to walk a stallion three miles along reasonably busy roads and past a horse stud where he saw mares and other stallions. He's been gelded now as I have all the foals I wanted. Use the Uni as much as you can find time to. Watch the lessons over and over. Remember, join up only needs to be done about 5 or 6 times with the dually - successful join ups that is. Do not be demanding. If back up is an issue you can use the dually and a hand on his chest and click/cluck or give some other vocal signal to get his mindset in the right place. Instant release for one or two steps and rubbing to congratulate will mean he will very quickly get the idea. Practice breathing - you can do that anywhere! Possibly one of the most important points, given that both he and you are on a learning curve, is keep it short. As soon as you get him to be positive, end the session. In the first few weeks he will become more willing that way. Keep it fun for both of you. Little and often. If a session is really short and you have time, give him a couple of hours relaxation and then have another short session but to learn something different. If he tries to bite, distract him. I cured one of mine by blowing air through my shut lips ( a raspberry ) but Monty bumps the horses shin GENTLY with his toe. Yes, I still feed from the hand and no biting, although I do get my pockets thoroughly investigated.
Hi Frank, yes, relax, you are doing fine, we all have to learn & you can't learn it all at once! Look in the mirror is the best way you can possibly learn, it's what we do that makes a nice relaxed horse!
I have a suggestion for you, use the Dually on one of the quiet horses to get used to using it, that will help you a lot with handling your young man.
Once you have his ground manners sorted out, there is no reason not to back him to be ridden, he sounds like an intelligent pony who is bored, so giving him some light work to do will give him more to think about, but, do make sure that you can handle him well on the ground first!
As everyone says Frank, relax! nearly 4 an no time to waste?? He will, given all the right circumstances live till he is over 30 so he is still young; you have all the time in the world. To expect him to do everything now would be like asking a 12 yr old human to learn to drive a car! Patience :-) I too was terrified of horses until a few years ago and now I am a self employed horse and dog trainer - it's taken this long to get to where you are Frank; enjoy the journey and take it nice and steady, you're doing great.
I've been with horses for 45 years & i can tell you, we NEVER stop learning, even our wonderful Monty is the first to say,
"This is my way today, but if you show me a better way, it'll be my way tomorrow!"
It's not just words, it how we should live with our horses, no one knows it all (although there's a lot of people who will tell you they do!!!)
Each horse will teach you a whole new set of lessons as they are individual!
Don't forget to enjoy your lovely pony!!!
Thank you for all your comments and great advise, its really valuable to me.
Vicci: when it comes to safety i really dont have much time to waste, sometimes i work out of town and sleep on hotels and currently im the only one handling him. So i really need him to learn ground manners before winter comes so i can let my wife, friends etc handle him safely.
In regards to other training i have plenty of time :-)
Beryl: Good idea i will use our mare for exercise, theres no tricks hidden in her :-)
And yes! i do enjoy my pony very much, and even more now that i feel that i have found a way that i think might work for us.
Just to let you guys know how things are going!
Again thank you so much for your help all! Im really happy i finally found the right training method :-)
I have been using the dually for 4 training sessions within a week, and last nite we took a 1 hour hike and he was being a real nice boy. His nose at my shoulder 95% of the time i only had to correct him very little. The only argument we had was because on the halfway we took a break, and i let him grass for reward for a few mins. Then when we headed home he thought he could still eat when felt like, but after some schooling he was relaxed again.
Our training are far from finish theres still alot to learn about standing still and waiting you know basic stuff really.
I have one question though:
I think we are making really good progress now i really cant believe how fast things are going, i promise i havent been too demanding. Withing the last 3 weeks i have been working with him for 20-30min each session 4 times a week.
I have done Join UP 2 times both successfull but with no dually training after.
My question is because would it be advisable to do more Join Up's now?? is that part finished now thats he's allready are willing to learn? Hes ofcourse still testing me and being stubborn on certain areas, but i feel like the dually helps alot.
Hi Frank. Only do 4 to 6 join ups per horse. It establishes trust but if overdone they can resent you continuing to say the same thing - boring. Once they are totally convinced that A) your not dangerous & B) you are a trustworthy leader, the dually gives you the chance to make the right thing easy & the bad behaviour uncomfortable. He will choose the easy option & teach himself to please you. Yes, it can be really fast. You must be consistent. If you want to reward him by rest & grass partway through your trek that's fine. Be firm, only eating when you say it's ok. Use a clear signal when you stop so he knows this is when he can graze & is not required to stand at your shoulder - perhaps walking to his hip & rubbing him there or stepping back away from him so he knows he can lower his head. Keep us posted. Jo
Frank, you are doing great - well done!!!!
It's amazing how fast they learn when you are consistent isn't it!
I would continue with the Dually training, you don'y need to keep on with join up, he's listening to you now & that's what it's all about, listening & learning & enjoying each others company.
He will keep testing you all his life, so get used to it, ha ha ha!!
It's you being consistent that will make the dram's much less often & make him a happier pony, keep it up & keep letting us know how it's going. x
Great stuff Frank - I agree with all Jo and Beryl have said. Enjoy!
Well done, Frank. The dually is amazing Shen correctly used. Agree with the others - keep up the dually work but take a break from doing join ups. Start introducing poles etc with the dually once it is going well to keep him from getting bored and walking out together is also great. Remember the long lead rope for walking out so that you an still hold him in case things come unstuck. Keep up the good progress.
Thanks all!
Im using the dually regularly now, theres still alot of work to do.
So i Will keep Working and let you guys know how its going soon!
I back (get on) my horses when they are 2.5 years old. It has never hurt them and I think they are easier to start than a four year old. I get on for 20 minutes only. Maybe 4 times a week. I long line first, join up, all that stuff so that when I get on, it's no big deal. I see no reason to wait until they are four. Good news - at age seven their brains are finished growing and they become "adults". Their behavior improves and they have settled down. Before that, they are like teenagers.
I think you are doing a great job, Frank! i'M GLAD YOU ARE ENJOYING YOUR BOY. Oh, by the way, my cure for biting is a gentle pinch on the lower lip where the bit sits. They don't like it and quickly get the idea. No, it's not cruel - I said a gentle pinch - it's effective.
Hi. My cure for biting is to blow raspberries ( blow through shut lips ). When you say gentle pinch I assume you are using pads of finger & thumb & not fingernails. Another good way is to put your forearm in the mouth, where the bit would go. It's too much meat for youngsters & they soon go off the idea. Monty uses a very gentle bump on the shin with your toe. It all comes down to distraction.
With regard to age to start ridden work, how long have you monitored one of the youngsters you started at less than 3? Also, you say 20 minutes about 4 times a week but how much weight are they carrying? These procedures need to be tailored to the individual animal - there is no right age as each developers differently & different breeds also vary a lot. Native British ponies do not stop growing & developing until they are 7. I am about to start a 6 year old - he's been busy as a stallion until recently but now gelded so we can concentrate on different things. Having an open mind & being flexible to meet the needs of each horse requires maturity, confidence & patience. Wouldn't it be great if every human had those qualities? But we don't! What each of us can do is strive to do better. I am not being critical! You clearly have had success & if that is achieved without violence it is to be commended! But we should never sit back - there are always improvements & refinements. Cheers, Jo
Well written Jo. Very good points so thanks.
People often think about damage to legs when getting on a baby, but don't often consider their back, the spine has growth plates in it, the ligaments aren't strong etc, you can do a great deal of damage by riding a very young horse.
I started my mare when she was 4, mostly still only groundwork, but once i got on her, we were led out for a walk at the weekends, probably for around 6 weeks then she was turned away until the following year. She still had no withers at all, she's Arab X.
My old boy grew 1" between 6 - 7 years old, he was Welsh X TB.
It's worth thinking about as you don't want kissing spines.
There is plenty of groundwork you can do with young horses that makes them into well mannered horses for riding in the future - it's just something to ponder on.