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Pushing into handler as a control mechanism

Hello! 100 lessons completed 150 lessons completed 200 lessons completed 250 lessons completed

I'd like to see how Monty best handles a horse that drops or pushes his shoulder into you as a way to control the handler's feet and avoid the task being requested. I generally school back when this happens but would appreciate any other techniques that may be effective. I haven't gotten hurt but I want to keep it that way too.

I am in the process of teaching him to move his shoulders away so I will have that tool to use as well, but naturally he is reluctant as he has figured out what I'm about with that.

The horse I am working is a Quarab gelding, approx. 5 years old. He has had some groundwork done including J-U and tarp walk but not much under saddle yet, and is a rescue. He is also late gelded, and very confident.

Thanks!

vicci - UK (North Wales)
Hello! 100 lessons completed 150 lessons completed 200 lessons completed 250 lessons completed 300 lessons completed 350 lessons completed

Hi Julie, the best way is to keep him away from you altogether until he learns about your space. It's hard to describe (much easier to show!) but imagine there is a circle or a bubble round you and that is the area that he must not enter; that way he can't push against you. You can hold your arm out to the side or use a plastic bag in your hand and crackle it very lightly - just enough to move him out of your space, not to frighten him or make him 'run away', just enough to get him to move his feet while you stand your ground (using the Dually of course) Make sure you use your body language too to convey strong energy when he tries to crowd you and then relax as he moves away - this is also a form of pressure and release. Good luck

MaggieF, Melbourne - Australia
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Just to add to Vicci's excellent response. This is where the dually will really help - see Klienne's answer to Virginia on 'no backing up''. Same principle applies here - hold the lead rope close to the dually discipline ring then use a straight arm with a jerk action to back him off you and give you your space. Soon as he responds - reward. Be consistent and patient as it may take some time for him to understand if he has been doing this all his life Make sure you are the one that moves into his space to pat and hug him etc and not vice versa. You may also find it beneficial to teach him to stand still for you while you are grooming him, saddling him etc. For this use the dually and a long lead. Lead him to a spot where you want him to stand - stop him with a jerk on the dually and 'woo-up' or whatever you use. Then step back from him - I tend to hold my hand up with the palm to wards him as I step back as I do when training a dog to sit and stay. If he moves at all a quick immediate jerk on the dually and put him back exactly where he was. Once he understands that he must stand still to avoid the jerk then try moving further away from him. Still working with Tricka on this one but eventually you should be able to drop the lead rope onto the ground and have him stand for you. Have fun!

beryl
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Excellent answers from both of you.
Always make him step back every time you go into the stable with him to let you through, if it's with his feed, he doesn't get it until he's moved back out of your way.
both of my mares are strong & dominant & the Fell pony likes to walk all over you, but her manners have improved very much, she's intelligent & obliging to step back as she wants to please, just needs guidelines!!!!!!!!
The part Arab is more dominant & likes to grump about everything - i'm obviously a very annoying person - she often stands her ground so i have to work harder. a few nights ago, she tried to barge right over the top of me when i wanted to put her sweetitch rug on, i DID NOT MOVE MY FEET, & she stopped stared me in the eye, gave a big huff, the stepped back - huh, i won that one! she's now 13 by the way!
You have to keep working hard with dominant horses & with a late cut gelding, you will have to work hard & keep your wits about you, they can be difficult, so the more good quality handling you do with him the better, but do keep it interesting for him with new challenges & he'll start to find it fun & want to do it for you. good luck.

MaggieF, Melbourne - Australia
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So true Beryl. The personality of the horse makes such a difference. Tricka is proving to be a dominant mare and like you with your mare and I need to constantly work on her . No doubt. I will always have to . She is good with me but will still try to dominate strangers if she is in one of her moods. An angel sometimes but I can never totally trust her when someone comes up for a pat.

beryl
Hello! 100 lessons completed 150 lessons completed 200 lessons completed 250 lessons completed 300 lessons completed

Strangely, my mare is very worried around strangers, i had to have 3 people looking after my 2 mares when i had my knee operation as they're both laminitics so i'm up there 3 times a day to get them on & off the grazing etc; she's as good as gold with them all, she was so upset with me for "abandoning" her, she wouldn't speak to me, the next day i put her head over my shoulder & my friend said look at the silly face - look at both silly faces. After that, mummy was back, so i got all the cheek of course.
she's 13 now, I've had her since she was 3 1/2, she's only had 2 other people on her back & is scared of putting a foot wrong.
It's mostly me, who she knows & trusts that gets the expressive behavior, i'd rather it was that way round so that she can be looked after by others if needed; it's the first time I've left them with anyone else so was very interesting! She's a very friendly mare & always goes to see anyone who comes to see us.

I have found that less is more with her, she'll always threaten to nip my leg when i put her sweetitch rug on, but that's become a lot less since i now don't move that leg to spread the rug along her back, she took that to mean she was in control, so now, she knows how far she can come & not get me, it's only if she's hypersensitive to do with her season that she may be more grumpy than usual & might really like to put teeth on me, then she gets told straight away!!!

MaggieF, Melbourne - Australia
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Like you, Beryl, I am trying to get Tricka more used to strangers as she has only had me all her life as I have always handled her and started her myself etc. Bit scared that I might not always be there for her in the future as age is catching up with me. I was fearful of sending her to a breaker as her mother was ruined for life by a horrible man who attempted to retrain her. Tricka was Ok with strangers until I took her to an in hand session when she was about 4 and the instructor asked if she could borrow her for a demonstration . I stupidly agreed. The instructor produced a pool noodle from a 44gallon drum and started waving it madly at Tricka. Tricka was really scared -the instructor stood behind the drum and had Tricka on the other side for safety. I had desensitized Tricka to many things but I hadn't thought of a pool noodle! First time ever Tricka showed aggression. I quickly retrieved Her but that lady did so much damage in about 10 minutes. After that Tricka started putting her ears back at me too and became quite a monster. Even had trouble floating her that day - no dually then. The one good thing was that Tricka's new challenging behaviiour brought me to Monty's uni and I have been a member ever since. I think I would have had to send Tricka to someone else for retraining if I hadn't found Monty's Uni. Join up and the dually halter worked wonders on Tricka but she still has her days and she still flattens her ears at that instructor if she ever sees her at our riding club. We both keep our distance! Sorry to bore some longer term members who have heard this story before.

vicci - UK (North Wales)
Hello! 100 lessons completed 150 lessons completed 200 lessons completed 250 lessons completed 300 lessons completed 350 lessons completed

Maggie, I have to ask!! what on earth is a pool noodle??!! (other than a lovely example of diffent name for things in different countries I suspect!!) The only noodle I know is the edible variety and while a pool of noodles (accompanied by some chicken and veg and a sweet chilli sauce) would me my idea of heaven I somehow think it's something else..... ;-)

MaggieF, Melbourne - Australia
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Oh Vicci I apologies for that! It's akids toy for riding and playing in water. They come in different colours, are hollow tubes made out of foam rubber, about 2.5 inches (9cm) in diameter, and about 1.5 meters long. Good things to use for desensitizing horses as you. An pop a stick through the centre to keep them partly stable and just have a wiggly end. I had no problem with the pool noodle as such it was just that Tricka had never seen one in her life before and this lady did not give her a chance to check it out - just started waving it at her full on. Tricka would have been fine of it was introduced appropriately, Monty ' s way, as she is very smart and it doesn't take her long to work out whether something new is really spooky and dangerous or harmless. Haven't worked with pool noodles on her since as it was not long after this that she hurt her back and that has taken a few years out of her riding and training programme. We have just been concentrating on strengthening it and she is finally coming good. I have my grandsons pool noodles here so I may just introduce them again to-day before I ride so she is desensitized to them. I am sure she would not have forgotten them!

MaggieF, Melbourne - Australia
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Oops forgot to check the spelling before I posted and I do make many more errors on my new IPad!

vicci - UK (North Wales)
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Ah! I know the thing you mean Maggie! Don't know what its called here but I like pool noodle ;-)

beryl
Hello! 100 lessons completed 150 lessons completed 200 lessons completed 250 lessons completed 300 lessons completed

Glad you asked that question Vicci, i was at a loss too.
Oh poor Tricka, what a stupid woman, it sounds like she's more like my Libby than i thought. I'm sure that re introducing the pool noodles, you will help her as she'll be happy to get over that fear although i can't blame her for not trusting strangers after that experience!!!!
Can you get different people to come & just sit near her & ignore her so they don't appear threatening to her?
Safety obviously comes first, but if they are positioned so she can't "do " anything to them if she's scared, but is able to go to them & investigate on her own terms to sniff them etc with no interaction from the person to start with, it may help her.

beryl
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have to add, I've seen videos on you tube of "professional" trainers at live demos doing just that same thing, basically look how scared this horse is when i deliberately frighten it on purpose & then look how wonderful i am now I've desensitized it!
it may be impressive to some people, but not to anyone who works to keep the adrenaline down - horses get scared of most new things! I thought our job was to help them through the process not hinder it.

MaggieF, Melbourne - Australia
Hello! 100 lessons completed 150 lessons completed 200 lessons completed 250 lessons completed

Thanks Beryl, I am now trying to find different people to expose her too. She is such an angel with some but with others she will flatten her ears and tell them to leave her alone - especially so if she is free. She is usually very good if she has her dually or bridle on.