Hi Charlotte - wow, you have a project ahead of you!! I would suggest that you go nice and slow with this guy if he hasn't worked for a few years. Build a good relationship, solid ground manners and leading work. Get a vet to check him out to see if there is anything you need to know. Re: feed, again go carefully, TBs are meant to be lean and horses don't respond well to being fattened up too quickly, it can make them poorly. Get his teeth checked to make sure he can actually eat properly and check worm count. Grass if that's what he is used to, top up with some extra haylage some chop maybe with some corn oil for calories; wetted down to avoid it clumping and choking him!. Don't use linseed oil - damages the liver in high quantities. Avoid anything molassed - its just sugar; no value. Re: building up muscles - I would start with simple longlining; its amazing how quickly they can build up - I've never used a Chambon so would be interested to see what others say but I find the simpler the better especially in the early days.

Hi. TBs can be great fun but they are also a learning curve! Unlike any other bred of equine. They love routine, they are not hardy & they get out of hand quicker than you can blink. Having said all of that, they are fab. Unfortunately, too many end up in the hands of well meaning people who just do not have sufficient knowledge & guess what, an accident happens & the horse gets the blame.
I agree with the previous log. Get his worm count checked & his teeth. TBs are supposed to be athletic, not skinny. Avoid high energy feed, it will result in overly enthusiastic behaviour. Personally, I would use the Dually to the exclusion of everything else, at least in the first instance. So long as his teeth are good & worm count low, feed lots of grass based feed as previously outlined. Haylege is good. Allow plenty of turn out time. If he feels zippy he can let off steam without you being flattened. Follow Montys plan. Get the respect without fear & work on from a positive place. Go slowly, ensure he accepts each step. Both of you will learn loads & in partnership will have the best relationship. Remember, small steps, keep calm & if it goes wrong, take a step back & start again. Good luck & keep in touch.

Hi Charlotte - pleased you are back in the Uni. I retrained a very spooked out , previously abused OTTB a couple of years ago. He had been raced and did OK but then had a very serious fall which put him off the track. One member of the syndicate who owned him then put him in his two acre paddock where he was left fairly neglected for six years. He was very scared of people and hard to catch but I used to manage to catch him for the farrier by bribing him with a carrot and by turning my shoulder until I could clip a lead rope on to the old headstall that was permanently on him. Although he remained scared while being trimmed he responded to me so I guess he must have had a kind female strapper at one stage mixed up with all the abuse. He is beautiful now, being ridden by a lady who befriended him and asked for my help to retrain him. He now always comes cantering over to say hello and get a good rub whenever I go to check on my horses that are agisted next to him. The secret with these horses is to follow Monty's training and to remember that slow is good. The dually was my salvation as most of the retraining had to be done in an open paddock. They did have a very small high fenced round yard about 10 metres in diameter which really helped with the desensitising exercises and my initial rides. Lots of ground work, lots of encouragement and Monty's incremental learning with lots of spooky things . I did use my usual carrot bits as rewards too when he performed correctly but he was not allowed to look for them - only rewarded when his head was looking straight ahead and not at me. At the time I was not skilled in long lining and it would have been impossible with a nervous horse and no adequate yard so the training was very focused on responsiveness to the dually and as we progressed responsiveness on a single lunge line attached to the dually but with a loop in the line - NO lunge whip as he was very spooked so everything had to be very low key. Initially he would spook and take off but I went with him and managed to hold him with the dually then brought him back to me with it. Gloves are important and as trip free area as possible - preferably a ménage or round yard. Always try to finish your session on a positive note even if it means taking a bit longer or shorter time than planned. I had never worked with thoroughbreds before so it was a great challenge and a very rewarding experience. They are delightful horses - very bright but also responsive and easily stressed. Currently I have another OTTB sharing the paddock with my mares. He put a large nail way up into his peddle bone and was stabled for 12 months - he still limps but is getting better and hopefully his owner will be riding and jumping him soon. After all the needles etc he was quite a grump when he came to me and fairly pushy and bargy but he has also responded well to the dually and is now a pleasure to handle. Walks nicely to his feed bowl for me, leads perfectly in the sweet spot and lunges well -will still take off occasionally as the other one did. They are very similar to look at - both about 17 hands, both brown with a white star but so very different in nature. The first one, Cash, was so scared initially yet so gentle while the current one is quieter and could be quite bossy and nasty if allowed to get away with it. Must go - new 8 week old golden retriever puppy is climbing all over me and trying to pinch my iPad. Do wish you success with your challenge and keep us posted.

I find the chambon helpful when it comes to teach a horse where to keep its head, since it will yield as soon as it goes off pressure and lower the poll. As with any tool, it's effect and usefulness rests in the hands that use it. Read up on it and how to use it!
.
As for using it to build back muscles, though, I am not 100% sure about its usefulness. Head in the correct position is of course a vital part of that, but more so is the engagement of the hindlegs, so maybe lots of long lining over poles and climbing (if you have that kind of landscape around you). If he keeps going with his head high and back low, then you can introduce the chambon, but if he moves in a good shape, there's not much point.
Wishing you lots of luck and fun with him!

Hi Charlotte - pleased you are back in the Uni. I retrained a very spooked out , previously abused OTTB a couple of years ago. He had been raced and did OK but then had a very serious fall which put him off the track. One member of the syndicate who owned him then put him in his two acre paddock where he was left fairly neglected for six years. He was very scared of people and hard to catch but I used to manage to catch him for the farrier by bribing him with a carrot and by turning my shoulder until I could clip a lead rope on to the old headstall that was permanently on him. Although he remained scared while being trimmed he responded to me so I guess he must have had a kind female strapper at one stage mixed up with all the abuse. He is beautiful now, being ridden by a lady who befriended him and asked for my help to retrain him. He now always comes cantering over to say hello and get a good rub whenever I go to check on my horses that are agisted next to him. The secret with these horses is to follow Monty's training and to remember that slow is good. The dually was my salvation as most of the retraining had to be done in an open paddock. They did have a very small high fenced round yard about 10 metres in diameter which really helped with the desensitising exercises and my initial rides. Lots of ground work, lots of encouragement and Monty's incremental learning with lots of spooky things . I did use my usual carrot bits as rewards too when he performed correctly but he was not allowed to look for them - only rewarded when his head was looking straight ahead and not at me. At the time I was not skilled in long lining and it would have been impossible with a nervous horse and no adequate yard so the training was very focused on responsiveness to the dually and as we progressed responsiveness on a single lunge line attached to the dually but with a loop in the line - NO lunge whip as he was very spooked so everything had to be very low key. Initially he would spook and take off but I went with him and managed to hold him with the dually then brought him back to me with it. Gloves are important and as trip free area as possible - preferably a ménage or round yard. Always try to finish your session on a positive note even if it means taking a bit longer or shorter time than planned. I had never worked with thoroughbreds before so it was a great challenge and a very rewarding experience. They are delightful horses - very bright but also responsive and easily stressed. Currently I have another OTTB sharing the paddock with my mares. He put a large nail way up into his peddle bone and was stabled for 12 months - he still limps but is getting better and hopefully his owner will be riding and jumping him soon. After all the needles etc he was quite a grump when he came to me and fairly pushy and bargy but he has also responded well to the dually and is now a pleasure to handle. Walks nicely to his feed bowl for me, leads perfectly in the sweet spot and lunges well -will still take off occasionally as the other one did. They are very similar to look at - both about 17 hands, both brown with a white star but so very different in nature. The first one, Cash, was so scared initially yet so gentle while the current one is quieter and could be quite bossy and nasty if allowed to get away with it. Must go - new 8 week old golden retriever puppy is climbing all over me and trying to pinch my iPad. Do wish you success with your challenge and keep us posted.

Oops not sure how that happened! Because it was still in this box when I re opened a day later I thought that meant I had forgotten to hit send. I guess I should have checked first! Apologies all.

Hi Everyone!!

Thanks so much for all your advise :D

Ive started working with poles Kicki, and he is doing well, Thank you! He is still carrying his head quite high, so i might start the chambon?

Thanks for all your tips Maggie! Its comforting to know that someone has succeeded in this area :D

Sounds like a good idea to start with groundwork first Vicci :) I have organized a clinic that I'm going to next week that teaches you how to do ground work and join up properly with your horse. Unfortunately i cannot buy haylage in my country. He is not too skinny, but I am having to feed him a lot of concentrate and is proving to be be quite expensive. I wondered if there was a supplement that might lower the costs? I'll start using the corn oil! :D Would anyone know how much to feed?

Thanks for the advise Jo :) I am letting him out now for 8 hours a day :)

Thanks again everyone!

Charlotte

Maybe go easy on the exercise for a while Charlotte, don't forget, the harder he is working, the more calories he needs and the more food he will eat! Concentrates are not great, especially in large quantities, as they tend to be processed too quickly, I didn't realise that you can't get haylage in SA (I learn something every day on this forum!) - can you get hay? When he is not turned out what is he eating, bearing in mind they heat for about 15 hrs a day, so what is he eating for the other 7? Can you put hay down?

Hi Charlotte - found an article that may help http://www.equinews.com/article/putting-weight-on-a-skinny-horse

Hi Charlotte,
Glad to hear he is doing well over the poles. Most horses find that exercise amusing so do lots of difefrent sets with them. I'm sure you can find any number of suggestions on the Internet.
If his head is high, then by all means introduce the chambon to him. But let him get used to it before you demand more work from him or have it on over the poles.
Most importantly, do make sure you know how to use it!

Hi. Alfalfa is good feed. I try & avoid molasses where I can. You can get it in nuts & dried. Use it to replace chaff. Just dried is great value & the nuts can be soaked, like you would sugar beet. It won't cause hyper behaviour but making sure he has plenty of outdoor time in a relaxed atmosphere will really help.

I beg to differ on Alfalfa, it most certainly can cause hyper behaviour - it sends my mare totally nuts when having only a handful of chaff with alfalfa in it!!!!
It is a well known feed to cause this problem in some horses along with barley & molasses.
If you do try using it, my advice is to introduce it very slowly!!!

Agree with Beryl re Alfalfa/lucerne. It certainly can cause hyper behaviour in some horses - especially thoroughbreds and Arabs that are more highly strung to start with. Try to avoid it if you can but if not just feed little amounts with pasture hay. Clover or clover and rye are far preferable if you can find them but sometimes hard to do. I am having to feed small quantities of lucerne myself at present as none of the feed outlets have clover/rye left. You do need to be careful with clover hay too as if it is baled too fresh then it can go mouldy. A challenge finding healthy, clean, good hay to feed out especially in winter here.

Hi. I did say with plenty of outdoor time. I agree, alfalfa is not for those on box rest. But hey, clover contains poison! So too much of that's not good either. We are talking about a horse that needs to gain condition so alfalfa, having lots of calcium could be helpful. All changes in feed should be gradual so it would be apparent if he was starting to get too 'high'. My Apollo, 3/4 Arab, lived to be 38. I boiled barley fresh for him daily, in small quantities. He team chased at 26 successfully, was part of a winning pairs cross country team at 30 and at 37 had the cheek to run off with me ( in a very gentle way ). He was so pleased with himself afterwards! Came into the yard half passing and bobbing his head hugely as if to say " I may be old but I still got it ". The feed manufacturers are the people who gave Britain BSC. Some horses do not suit barley, or oats. But some do really well on it, especially when living out in a harsh environment like Scotland. Don't be too quick to ditch the old knowledge. Not all of it is without merit. Can anyone tell me the protein source for economy cubes? I would bet there are thousands of little ponies being fed these everyday. The sack tells the protein level but not the source. Think on that - there would be protein in chicken feathers. I DO NOT KNOW THE PROTEIN SOURCE - I am just making a point. Vegetable oil is fed a lot. Isn't that just like feeding chips or a veggie Big Mac? If lots of fat is not good for human hearts and horses cannot access it in the wild, why would we think that it would be ok to feed a couple of pints of it a day? I know people who give horses 6 eggs in their feed for 5 days to get a glossy coat. Only for 5 days as it acts to prevent the absorption of protein. Feed is a huge issue. I reacted to someone wanting advice for a thin horse. I rescued my stallion at the point where he was about to shut down. Humphrey was 2 & had been kicked by a shod mare that knocked out all his bottom teeth on the left side. I steamed alfalfa for him. He went from 'hat rack' to magnificent cob. That was 4 years ago. He's now gelded as I have 2 youngsters, bring the herd to 5. I understand your concerns but not all the old ways are necessarily bad. I still boil barley in winter. When cooked, last winter, 1 litre between 3 ponies. They are all in good condition & they get alfalfa too. There is no hard and fast right and wrong. It's try it and see. Clover contains the stuff they use to kill rats.

Thanks Jo. Good points and. I do agree that alfalfa/lucerne is a good feed particularly if you have a laid back horse or your horse is well trained and in work or your horse is. Not been ridden and you wish to keep them in good condition without a grass belly but for an OTTB that needs re-training I would say NO Alfalfa. Also agree that you do need to be careful re clover hay as it be mouldy and bad for horses but I was not aware that it could be poisonous so thanks for that. Certainly didn't know it killed rats. My preference is for clover and rye mix but that is sometimes hard to find. Like you I do prefer the traditional foods and I mix my own feed - two thirds oaten chaff, one third lucerne chaff then add steam rolled barley according to the horse and a handful of bran to each feed - plus grass/pasture hay plus some better hay - clover/rye if I have it or a small amount of lucerne or small amount of oaten hay. Their are some great internet articles on feeding your horse and horse nutrition - stick with the ones written by qualified people e. g. vets and Vicci's article above.

Just an add on. When I first purchased my QH Uggs when helping out on my parent's property in northern NSW he looked very funny coming off the transport truck. Very fluffy hair very skinny neck and legs but big wormy grass belly - hence his name Uggly. Had purchased him over the phone from his breaker as a very quiet horse for an older person to help out with my Dad's pretty wild cattle. He was that when I first rode him due to his undernourishment. The ostensibly Monty type breaker had told me that he was so quiet he had hardly needed to work on him at all. When I needed to return home to Melbourne for a month my very demented Dad fed him and his cows huge quantities of the lucerne I had purchased for his skinny cows. When I returned to the property Uggs was unrecognisable - beautiful fat sleek horse so lucerne certainly puts the weight on quickly but my goodness I had certainly lost my nice quiet horse! He was a handful and such a challenge yet I could not give him the time he deserved as there was far too much for me to do each day trying to successfully manage and improve the very run down 3,300 acre neglected property and also look after my demented Dad so he could stay there as long as possible.

You lot got it! Feeding is a real balancing act. Every one is different. It needs to be tailored to the individual and the work given - but that was my point. The feed guys give us the mean average - we should be neither mean nor average. OMG - we need to be so savvy. Hey, we are that good, we just need to open up. There's an old saying, a little of what you fancy does you good and I try go with that. Hey, it works for me. I have the hardest time dealing with closed minds. If it worked in the past, maybe it had merit. If it was violent, then probably not. Humphrey will try and get another ponies feed. I shout "Humphrey, own bucket". Even if I am 60 meters away, he turns round and goes back to his own bucket. Who says Stallions cannot be controlled by women? I have soooo much fun with my 5. The filly, just 10 weeks, gives me so much trust. Bella, her mother, gives me free rein. Filly goes a bit concerned so we go to Mum and she's so relaxed it wares off. Lesson learnt! Ok, none of mine are OTTB, but the same principles apply. Cheers, Jo

You lot got it! Feeding is a real balancing act. Every one is different. It needs to be tailored to the individual and the work given - but that was my point. The feed guys give us the mean average - we should be neither mean nor average. OMG - we need to be so savvy. Hey, we are that good, we just need to open up. There's an old saying, a little of what you fancy does you good and I try go with that. Hey, it works for me. I have the hardest time dealing with closed minds. If it worked in the past, maybe it had merit. If it was violent, then probably not. Humphrey will try and get another ponies feed. I shout "Humphrey, own bucket". Even if I am 60 meters away, he turns round and goes back to his own bucket. Who says Stallions cannot be controlled by women? I have soooo much fun with my 5. The filly, just 10 weeks, gives me so much trust. Bella, her mother, gives me free rein. Filly goes a bit concerned so we go to Mum and she's so relaxed it wares off. Lesson learnt! Ok, none of mine are OTTB, but the same principles apply. Cheers, Jo

Interesting story about Uggs Maggie; I have seen this happen a few times and I am beginning to wonder if horses "shut down" their personality a bit when they are underweight/malnourished and can give the impression of being quiet and gentle. Once up to body weight and recognising that food is no longer 'rationed' their true personality starts to unfold. I'm just musing at the moment...it's a bit chicken and egg...Can the lack of food make the stroppy horse quiet...or the increase in food make the quiet horse hard to handle....or a combination of both...

Hi. I've seen several instances of this. Most recent was a TB. His history was a very successful steeple chaser, won several times at the Cheltenham Festival in England. He had been retired & retrained. He is just a great big softy but when he was sold it was wintertime & he was thin. As the spring grass came through, together with good feeding, his weight increased & with this his enthusiasm. He did nothing wrong but he did put more energy into what he did. His owners had previously owned a lovely cob. They found this TB a bit intimidating, being bigger & faster than they were accustomed to. As they reacted to this by being hesitant effectively they cramped his style. Like I said he is a big softy & he just continued to try & please them. However it was not a good match & thankfully they sold him to one of my friends before the situation caused any real problems. Balancing feed is an art. The horse needs enough fuel to do the work required and cope with the weather. Too much of something can lead to too much energy and not enough leaves the horse in danger of being ill. Keeping the right balance of vitamins & minerals is so important -as it is for ourselves. It probably is not enough just to leave a horse in a grass field in the summer, with water. Very few pastures will have all the required parts of a balanced diet. But to answer your point, yes quiet horses can become very excited if fed too much of certain foods - just like some children react badly to particular processed foods.

It is an interesting subject. I think one of the things I have learned is if you buy a quiet horse that is underweight it might not be showing all it's true natures and to be aware that there may be 'more to come' when it feels better. I see it in rescue dogs too. Anyway, as I said, I'm musing and rambling a bit sorry :-) Mine are in a grass field with just water and doing fine :-) But they do also have thistles, nettles, bit of hedgerow (leaf tips of the blackthorn hedge) etc. I find the natives much more hardy (downside is they put on weight too easily!) and they really enjoy some of the 'rough' aspects of their diet - especially the thistles (which I cut down for them) hahah, I just love watching how they eat the flower, then start at the bottom of the stalk, flatten the spines as they chew upwards!(Welsh Mountain Pony and two Shetlands)

Hi. Yes mine do the same with thistles. Nettles are eaten too. However, I add a garlic feed balancer lick to ensure all vitamins & minerals & help with flies/ midges. The 15 k block is about £25. Lasts a month between the 5 ponies. I also feed once a day, alfalfa & course mix in small quantities as the filly is 11 weeks old & suckling. The geldings are only fed to ensure the mare & foal get peace to eat. I could split them up but treating everyone the same seems fairer. The geldings get a laminitis approved chaff too. It bulks up the feed without bumping up the calories. Possibly overkill but they are all healthy & happy & that's the whole point.

It is interesting how nutrition changes behaviour in horses but I guess it is true for all animals including us. I helped out at a breakers once as he had crushed his legs while breaking in a horse and I offered to muck out the stables and yards for him. Didn't last long as I discovered to my horror that he was a traditional type breaker a bit similar go Monty's Dad. As well as tying the back leg up around the neck of the beautiful young horses he was preparing to " break" he also starved them for several days first to quietening them down. Their yards were bare dirt and they would be eating the poo I was meant to be picking up!

Yuk! Man, as a species, seems to have sunk to incredible depths. Hopefully if enough of us support people like Monty we can cause a world wide change. Humans are still so ridiculously cruel to each other - like in Israel/Gaza just now. However, horses deserve specific attention. Without the horse we would not have made the advances that we have. The horse has served us as a species & should now get our respect & protection. Why I feel the need to say that here I don't know - highly likely that this will only be read by people who already respect, love & protect their horses. Please do not take offence. I am a great supporter of anyone who respects their horse & who actively works to build a partnership. Has anyone worked out what the VINTA part of my email means? Violence is never the answer. I reckoned if I wore it on my sleeve it would help me to live it too. Being something of a late starter I'm trying to gain every possible advantage. Take care. Jo

We had a TB mare who was skinny; fed grass/alfalfa to her
and 2 quarter horses. She fattened right up.I also noticed
total hay consumption greatly reduced. 20 years doing this;
no problems except for one mare loved the alfalfa and picked
and tossed hay to find it,causing a little waste.Vet said a
long time on straight alfalfa could cause renal failure,but I talked to a ranch lady who said that is all she ever feeds
her horses. Early spring new growth of some grasses contains
high concentration of warfarin; I suppose that is the rat poison mentioned- I didn't realize clover had it, but clover
is a legume so it is high protein and would put on weight,so
good luck, Doug Campbell, No. Platte, Ne.

Hi. Unmolassed alfalfa can be used as a hay replacement. I understand it is widely used as such in France, for all farm stock including horses. I have never heard of connections with any medical problems. Older horses do very well on alfalfa as they are less efficient at processing food so need more to get their needs - Apollo made it to 38 on a diet of alfalfa & fresh boiled barley. My vet does not approve of barley - yet barley appears to be quite a large ingredient of D & H mare & foal mix! I guess a mix of opinion is no bad thing. My advice would be keep an open mind, try all sorts of things but introduce slowly, monitor carefully & make tailor diet to the individual horse. Cheers, Jo