Precursor; I have done join up with a lot of horses with great success. I know, when you have trouble Monty says look in the mirror. I'm not sure I'm the problem but hey, who knows.
History on horse. I bought a 4 year old Belgium/Quarter horse cross. She sold him because she didn't have time for him. From what I saw when I went to look at him is that he is what I would call a spoiled pet horse. Can not catch him without oats, wouldn't lead without oats, stood there and she let him chew on her gloves, nips. Would not load without oats.
Now, what I've done. He doesn't lead worth a hoot but getting better. I did join up with him one day with success and follow up. Last two days, I take him in pen, do all the steps and he gives ALL the signals. When I slow him down so he's putting his head down, I'll turn my back and he will stop and take one or two steps towards me. When I try to walk back to him, yes, shoulders at 45 eyes looking away, he takes off in a circle again. I have even tried standing there for 1/2 hour and let him come to me but he just stands there, again when I try to approach he goes in a circle again. He is impossible to catch unless you get him in barn (with oats). Can not walk up to him in round pen and catch him. With failed attempts I've had to rope him to get him out of the pen.
I'm seriously thinking she lunged him a lot and that's what he believes we are doing. He's never been ridden, just a saddle on his back and no ground driving.
Any ideas? PLEASE!!!!!!!!!
History on horse. I bought a 4 year old Belgium/Quarter horse cross. She sold him because she didn't have time for him. From what I saw when I went to look at him is that he is what I would call a spoiled pet horse. Can not catch him without oats, wouldn't lead without oats, stood there and she let him chew on her gloves, nips. Would not load without oats.
Now, what I've done. He doesn't lead worth a hoot but getting better. I did join up with him one day with success and follow up. Last two days, I take him in pen, do all the steps and he gives ALL the signals. When I slow him down so he's putting his head down, I'll turn my back and he will stop and take one or two steps towards me. When I try to walk back to him, yes, shoulders at 45 eyes looking away, he takes off in a circle again. I have even tried standing there for 1/2 hour and let him come to me but he just stands there, again when I try to approach he goes in a circle again. He is impossible to catch unless you get him in barn (with oats). Can not walk up to him in round pen and catch him. With failed attempts I've had to rope him to get him out of the pen.
I'm seriously thinking she lunged him a lot and that's what he believes we are doing. He's never been ridden, just a saddle on his back and no ground driving.
Any ideas? PLEASE!!!!!!!!!
After reading your description of what is taking place with your new horse and you, I have come up with a few suggestions for you to think about. You mention above that you slow your down in an attempt to draw him toward seeking you out. I an assuming that this is all part of your join-up effort. If I am reading this right, that might be part of the problem that your are having--you [slowing the horse down] In Monty`s join-up procedure, the horse is allowed to slow HIMSELF down. The handler does not actively slow the horse down for join-up to happen. The thought process of slowing down and the horse coming closer in must originate from the horse. He might say- [" I would like to come closer and take a good smell of you to see if you are truly a worthy leader"] There is a subtle ,but very important, change that takes place with the horse at that moment. That change is what determines his first attempt rejoining the circle of your energy. It`s your energy that sparks his curiosity about you. If your horse will stop and look at you, you can bring about the coming together. It is just a matter of timing and patience.
The other suggestion that I might offer is for you to take the time that it takes to get your horse to FOCUS on you at the stand still. This will usually take a couple of days to bring about. This little exercise goes like this: the goal is to get the horse to stand in front of you on a lead line and focus on you and only you without moving a step. Every time the horse moves,, ask him to step back and to re-focus. When he gets good at the close-in distance between you two, increase the distance a couple of steps back until he is comfortable at 20 feet between you and will stay there with focus for at least 5 minutes. This exercise will produce results that will carry over in your future training efforts at many levels.
Best of luck with your new horse and welcome to the forum.
Bud
When you say you don't slow the horse down, in Monty's vids on join up he specifically talks about "when I raise my hand up with open fingers, the horse will speed up" "when I bring my hand down and to the front with closed hand, he will slow down"
Hard to communicate via texted words...LOL
When I have tried join up "again" I go in both directions, then back to original direction. After I've gotten all the signals from the horse I will bring my hand down, fingers closed, and he will go down to a walk. When I turn, he turns to face me and takes a couple of steps towards me but stops. If I try to approach as Monty does in some vids, or cross over in front of him, he just goes back to the fence as if he was forced to do this with a lot of lunging. As I said, I think he believes that's what we are doing. Hope I maybe explained it better.
I will try again today and also try your second suggestion with him.
Thanks again for your input, I appreciate it.
Jim
With your answer to my vision of you and your horse are doing in the join-up exercise, you talk about the format of raising your arm and opening your hand to speed the horse up and to keep him out there on the edge of the circle and then lowering your arm to slow the horse down. This area is very subtle in its connection, but the lowering of the arm is NOT meant to slow THE HORSE in terms of WHOA ,but its thought goes into the pressure or no pressure arena and there by creates a moment for the horse to think about his ability to lower the adrenalin that courses through his body because of the pressure that has been place on him to stay out at the edge of the circle.. Now,it is NO MORE. This is the where MAGIC of the join-up happens.. With that said, I understand what you are saying with regard to your horse not going through with the total join-up and I assume no follow-up. You could be right on in the respect that your horse might have trained to follow another course of action at this juncture.....My suggestion would be to try one more time with just a little more of a pause in time between the horse stopping and looking at you and you asking for a join-up. Take the time to see the expression on your horse`s face and then lower your eyes with the invitation for him to come in. Draw him near you with the horseman`s handshake The timing here is critical; Just before you walk in front of him, wait for the moment that he sneaks a look at you. THAT`S WHEN TO WALK IN FRONT. Trust me, he wants a taste of your energy, and given enough time, he will find a way to make it happen. However, you might watch Monty one more time. He is a master at this exercise and his timing differs with each horse and how they are responding to him. If you watch closely the interaction of the horse and Monty, you can catch some of the subtle changes in both the horse and Monty.
You mention above in your original post about your horse being given to grain treats in order for the previous owner to get him handled in any sort of time. Remember, treats create a draw for the horse`s seeking mechanism to be become active, and obviously at that time he considered treats more valuable than his freedom... If push comes to shove, I would get him started with the using the treats only on a limited basis so that you might accomplish your goal for him to see you as a trusted leader.
Good luck my friend and lease keep us posted
Bud
Jo offers her keen insight with her post on changing of directions to bring about a new focus for your horse while lunging. I do this through the course of the year with my older horses to bring about animation in their movement and as a result they have their eyes glued on me after the second or third turn in the opposite direction. However, I do this at liberty because the changes are faster to come. The focus produced by this activity is un believable. I think that this would cause a new beginning for both you and your boy.
As an example, my horses make a change and after they take a step in the opposite direction and the are asked to change directions again. They will ultimately operate off of their back legs with the front legs lifted off of the ground as the swing to the changes that I ask for. For sure, I have their focus. This would change your horse`s established way of being directed. My horses really respond to this activity as it pumps the adrenalin through their body. Then you ask them to settle with a WHOA and they rest with a pause in your activity
. Your horse will see you in a different light after this. REMEMBER, he who controls the feet, controls the mind.
`Hope this helps,
Bud