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Horse Behavior and Training

pawing habit

Hello!

My little filly has started a pawing habit where she digs holes and rips up the grass in a perfect circle around her feed bowl when she eats her dinner... Any ideas how to discourage this? It's definitely not doing any good to the grass either :(

Kicki -- Sweden
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As far as I know, horses instinctively paw to dig up roots, minerals and water, or break ice to get to water, so for them it serves a purpose (to survive) although they don't understand it themselves.
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When they run out of water or food (grain)from a bucket they might start to paw in frustration, because instinct and experience says: "pawing can get you some more", and when that doesn't work they simply paw more because they have no other real means of reflecting or discussing the problem in their heads. They may also start pawing as a superfluous action of excitement because they are in a hurry to eat all that yummy food before someone else does.
Either way, they are just frustrated (Their brains lack frontal lobes where reflection takes place.)so any discouragement has to be done with that in consideration or you might just cause more frustration to an already frustrated horse. Esp. with this being a "little one" too.
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I think it woud be best if you could prevent the action from happening to begin with.
A friend of mine, who's bred about 20-30 foals says, interestingly, they never seemed to start pawing when the feed was scattered on the ground. If she had to use buckets/bowls, soon as the horse had almost finished she would empty the the last bits on the ground and remove the bowl.
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Very interested to hear what other has to say about this problem.

JoHewittVINTA
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Hi. I agree with Kicki's points but horses also paw to make noise, in stables, on gates etc. depending on the season, where in the world you are, it may be too muddy to turn out the last remnants on the ground. I have 2 suggestions. Firstly, a bucket that hangs on the stable door, gate, fence. This will prevent food being wasted when she kicks/paws it. Secondly, a rubber mat. If only in place for feeding it will protect the ground/grass & her hoof. It will also give a surface to put the last of her food on if you take that option. Cheers, Jo.

zeiddance
Hello! 100 lessons completed

I have one mare that will paw when she wants my attention or is anxious to see me. She sometimes paws when she is anxious to get going and do something.

vicci - UK (North Wales)
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Very informative Kicki; particularly interesting about the scattered food...it makes sense when you think about it from the horses point of view. Scattering mimics their natural foraging behaviour while bucket feeding is more akin to a 'survival serch' as you descibe...Hmm..really got me thinking that has!

Kicki -- Sweden
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Ah, yes, of course horses paws for a number of other reasons too. I just wanted to limit myself to the action in connection to eating. :)

Becky C
Hello!

Brilliant bit of information Kicki! My young mare has started pawing for food, when she's ignored and tied up and when we're about to go out riding. If she paws when I'm coming towards her with food I walk away until she is quiet then feed her. Any thoughts on this- is what i'm doing going to be effective? As far as the pawing for attention I carry on ignoring her and I'm hoping she may grow out of it. She's only 3 and she is fed the same time as another mare she shares a field with as together her owner and I share turn-out an turn-in. This pawing and door kicking for her food has only started since we started sharing so I'm assuming the association of her pal being given a bucket means she's expecting her bucket too. Sorry to high-jack the thread but I find it very interesting! (plus it is a slightly irritating habit!)

Kicki -- Sweden
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Becky, I can't tell you if it's going to be effective or not, but of all the strategies people develop to stop horses from pawing or banging, I think yours is one most likely to have the desired effect.
I'll try to explain my reasoning below.
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Horses are quick learners-by-doing and I know lots of horses that has trained their owners to pay attention to them by making a nuisance of themselves.
I'm imagining the situation is along the lines of:
Horse:"I'm excited and frustrated because I sense food but I can't get to it."
Human:"Darn animal is going to wreck the stable. Stop that!"
Horse:"It's coming closer - I'm getting more excited! Hurry up!"
Human:"STOP IT!"
Horse:"It's very stressful here. I want to be someplace else or get my food so I can relax."
Human: "Here - now eat and SHUT UP!"
Horse:"I'm still excited, that was intense. I'm glad it got quiet after I got my food so I can calm down."
Next time:
Horse:"I'm excited and frustrated because I sense food and I can't get to it. Last time was so stressful. Hurry up with the food so I can start to calm down!"
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In Becky's case she isn't contributing to the frustration or increasing the stress levels. On the contrary, she takes away the thing that triggered the stress and it doesn't come back until things are quiet. Hopefully, the horses will pick up on the general idea, but it is a battle against Mother Nature, so I believe we need lots of patience and inventiveness to stop a horse from banging/pawing as they probably isn't always consciously aware of doing that, much less that it is an undesired behaviour.
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A neighbour of mine has taught her four horses to line up by their cribs (in their respective boxes) and stand there silently while she feeds them. I have no idea how she did it, though! LOL Must ask one day!

LennyLlama
Hello!

This little filly is 6 months old and digs through the ground like there's no tomorrow.. We aren't there when she eats (we are agisting her in a DIY situation so we leave once we have fed her). She never paws or gets impatient when I walk to her paddock with her feed or when I pour it in her bucket. We are there for a little while during the time she eats and she will suspend her leg in the air and jiggle it around, as well as paw. I notice that almost all the time, the next day, there is quite a significant ditch dug perfectly around her feed bowl.... I've been suggested the weighted rubber rings that you put around their fetlock so when they paw, it thumps them on the leg.. But her legs are so tiny, they definitely would fall off. I've also been suggested to lay rubber matting under her feedbowl or to srew it to her feed bowl but I feel that she Will still paw and it won't get rid of the problem, but only stop the grass from getting dug up... Do you guys have any other suggestions?
Many thanks,
Lani

JoHewittVINTA
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Hi. I have just bought a remedial 3 year old. He has food issues! Someone tried to sort them by twisting his ears & screaming in his face so he took to 'boxing' with his front feet. The boxing was sorted by 2 sessions of about 3 minutes each with the dually. Now he keeps his feet on the ground. The food issues - someone has seriously deprived him in his short life, seem to be fixed. I adapted a flexible bucket so I could ratchet it to the gate, too high for him to kick it. That solved the wasting issues plus, because it isn't ridged like a hang on feed bucket it flexis & moves - like long grass in a breeze, so he has to work to get his food. The rest of my little herd now get peace to eat. The real advantage is Bo won't leave his bucket so I can handle his ears from the safety of the other side of the gate. We are winning the battle! Now all we need to do is start him under saddle & for driving & he will be ready to seriously look for a forever home. Hope this helps. Cheers, Jo.

jerrytorgerson
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on one of richard maxwell vids he puts strap just above the knee with some ball bearings threaded through the strap, the idea is when the horse paws it makes it uncomfortable as the bearings rattle on the knee and it works,

JoHewittVINTA
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Hi Lani. You say 'we' are there for some of the time the filly is eating. This is more than one person. Different situation but my experiences with my colt, now nearly 2 & my almost 10 month old filly might help. When each was very little I was kicked, gently, by them. My reaction has produced two ponies that have never raised a foot to me or anything else since going through this simple process. To clarify, I was not hurt on either occasion which made this much easier. I never uttered a word or any sound. I simply stepped up to their body & with my hip, gently moved them sideways with a bumping motion. Kirk, the colt, moved 5 times before looking at me with an expression of 'You're really not happy with what I did, are you' on his face. His sister did exactly the same thing about 14 months later. Stats can back up any theory. This has worked 100% for me - twice! With both my youngsters & both sexes. Perhaps if you are next to the filly when the pawing starts & move her feet, gently, as she goes to paw you can break the habit. In this way you can avoid using any equipment & make the best use of the horses own language to achieve your goal. Good luck. Cheers, Jo.

Wagonmaster
Hello!

I bought some kicking bracelets for my pawing palomino yearling. Worked like a champ WHILE he's wearing them. Take em off and he'll still paw. YOu could try them while she's eating. It may get the message across.

Just search for kicking bracelet and they are on Amazon at a dirt cheap price. You get TWO not one for the price, so only order one. My review is on Amazon. Check it out. Life is too short to try to psychologically evaluate every horse behavior. Stop the behavior and get on with enjjoying your girl.

JoHewittVINTA
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Hi, moving her feet will take less than 2 minutes maybe 3 times & cost nothing!

Becky C
Hello!

Thanks for the response Kicki, She still thumps the door and paws the ground but hey ho, I'm willing to put up with it at the moment and carry on doing the walking away thing. All the horses are boarded in an american style barn so they all see each other get fed and see you from a mile off with the bucket so I suppose there's no escaping the high energy at feed time. She does paw when shes being groomed or tacked up to ride and I have to walk away and get something. I imagine this is the gremlin side of having a very joined up horse that is also a mini amateur-dramatics queen. 'OIOIOI MOTHER, MUM, MUMMMMMYYYY' is what I can hear her say. As soon as you come back she falls back to sleep. You don't even need to touch her just be near her space. So when I want a chat with a few of the other girls we have to stand around her end of the barn. It's probably not the most correct MR behaviour but it's nice to be wanted even if you know you're really just her glorified servant...

vicci - UK (North Wales)
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A purely behaviourist approach, as WagonMaster suggests would be to apply rings as "Life is too short to try to psychologically evaluate every horse behavior". However, as you have pointed out WagonMaster, when you remove the rings the behaviour continues so the reason for it has not changed, all that has happened is an introduction of discomfort.
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The trouble with a pure behaviourist approach is that it doesn't change the underlying reason/emotion that is driving the behaviour. It can suppress it or in some cases it can make the situation worse because you introduce a new negative feeling which then serves to displace the original reason into a different behaviour; this, in my view is how steretypical behaviours become entrenched.
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I am not against rings at all but understanding WHY a behaviour happens is crucial; humans are too fond of a quick fix that just stops a behaviour. Sometimes the reason is very straightforward and taking quick action is all that's needed but standing back to evaluate the whole problem when it's in a complex setting such as the ones that Lani and Becky describe (shared facilities/multiple feeds going on etc.)is essential. As Jo says, using the horses language is the first port of call, gadgets are a human language :-)

Certified Instructor Ann Lindberg/Sweden
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Dear All! This is a very interesting question - and many other interesting questions arise along the way! The thing we need to remember is what we want the horse to associate certain things with - AND - IF they can associate with the "right things" (the things we want them to). So, I would ask myself - does it really matter about her pawing while eating? The point of evaluating a behavior is a good point - horses do not paw when grazing right? So, maybe we might need to get annoyed about other little things and be very happy that we have horses that are happy to see us! KEEP ON EQUUS ALL - Good thoughts and humble ideas from your Swedish CI Ann Lindberg

Mel - Ramsgate UK
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Part of my training of foals/yearlings covers ground pawing, it is something that can be kindly trained out of them, but takes patience on our side. The foals I'm training at the moment are field kept and eat side by side.
First steps is to make sure it's safe to approach the head when food is present, are you able to go to the bucket and hold it whilst they eat. A client recently made the mistake of assuming it was safe to do so and promptly got spun on and kicked. So if you cannot yet approach the feed bucket when being eaten your first step would be to be able to stand close enough without putting yourself in danger. Find out how close you can go before your horse becomes the slightest bit reactive, the face will tell you enough.
Once you are in a comfort zone, each time they paw the ground look directly at the leg pawing, point to it and say a sharp 'att' sound each time the leg hits the ground and do it until they hold the leg in the air whilst they think about doing it again. When they relax the leg, say well done, take one step backwards and relax. They will associate the annoying 'att' sound with their leg hitting the ground. and release of pressure when they keep their feet still.
When they start the second time take a step forwards to where you were standing before, look and point to the leg and 'att' every time they paw the ground. It must be when that hoof hits the ground! You can start the 'att' sound as soon as the foot starts, they'll associate the sound before the action of you moving forwards. At first you might be back and forth like a yo yo, just keep calm, consistent and repetitive.
As you know horses like their own space when eating, however to be rewarded with that they must learn to eat from the bucket without pawing at it or the ground around, or damaging buckets.
Once you are happy that you can move closer to the horse when eating, the above needs to be taken a little bit further, if they don't listen fully with the first stages. Applying the above all the time the hoof hits the ground, you reward when eating nicely with backing away and advance with pressure when they start pawing, you can become more assertive as you move forwards heading to the feed bucket when you know it's safe to do so, to a point that if they're still not listening by the time you get to the feed bucket you can remove it from them, but only for a second before you place it back on the ground, then back away again. You must do this every time and every meal, just once of missing it and you're back to square one, especially with the youngsters. It only takes about 8 mins ish for them to eat.
Most will not get to the point where you need to lift the bucket, the 'att' sound, looking at the leg in question and pointing with advance and retreat works very well.
Depending on how old, how long etc the horse is or has been pawing around food will depend on how long it takes for your horse to stop it.
Let me know how you get on, and if you record it, would love to see your youtube clips :D I'll get some uploaded soon.
x

Mel - Ramsgate UK
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Oh, little bit more on the release. the more they stand still the further away you go. You should get to a point of around 10-15 feet away and the 'att' sound will work perfectly well at a distance.
x

MaggieF, Melbourne - Australia
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Great advice, Mel.

Mel - Ramsgate UK
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Thank Maggie. x